Favorite C6th Key Positions

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Do selected keys, such as the playing out of the "A" chord at the 9th fret, offer better advantages? Which of 3 positions, do you enjoy playing most? I am partial to keys, A, D, and C.

Bill H.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

I am trying to get all over the neck in every key, which isn't as bad as it sounds. The tuning is genius- and doing a lot of non-pedal playing helps to reveal more about what the pedals do.

A generalization: it seems like a very different approach from "traditional E9" playing as there is a lot more bar movement within melodic lines, although both tunings require vertical and horizontal movement, obviously...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, etc.) seem to be easier to intonate on the C6th than on the E9th. I don't like to play in A or E on the C6th very much, because intonation is more of a struggle than on the E9th.

My favorite keys on C6th are C, F, G, D, Bb and Eb, and their relative minors Am, Dm, Em, Bm, Gm and Cm. My Williams' back neck is tuned to D6th, so my preferences on that axe are a step higher.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Bobbe Lee,

Is your 1st string on the D6th tuning, tuned to an (A) note? That would require a very thin gauge, to prevent breakage. That is the note that pops the 3rd string on the E9th tuning. Some musicians have been known to tune the first string differently.

Bill H.

Gary Walker · From: Morro Bay, CA

Chalker, Rugg, Jernigan and a lot of others play Bb, Ab, Eb for solo work. Singers use the A, E, G, etc.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

My first string on the D6th is an E, Bill. Click here.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I'm not sure I understand. Why should intonation be a problem in different keys (unless you're using a lot of open strings)?

It's not like the strings go out of tune when you move the bar up a fret to play in a different key... And the pedals still pull the same amount...

What am I missing?

-Travis

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Travis,

I think that the different ranges on the C6th neck, would require a bit more attentiveness,in specified keys, should they force you to grope for necessary pitches. Please keep in mind, that to have the skills to scurry around the fretboard, in search of melody lines, without pressing pedals, is the original concept of this thread. Perhaps, Bobby was referring more to octaves, in his references to intonation.

Bill

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Interesting topic, thanks Bill.

When deciding what key to place a song in using the C6 neck, I often rely on several factors. One factor, of course, is in what key the song is traditionally played; examples would be Steel Guitar Rag in E, Don't Get Around Much Anymore in C, Midnight in Old Amarillo in E, Oklahoma Stomp in A, etc.

Another is for the convenience of other players in the band. For example, In The Mood is traditionally played by dance band in Ab, but most western swing bands I've played with favor the fiddle players and play the song in G, so as to use open strings.

If I'm learning a song from sheet music, like a Tin Pan Alley standard, I'll start with the key the song is written in. I mean, why learn a new tune and have to transpose while learning it, right?

When I work up an arrangement for a song myself, I'll often choose the key that allows me to get to the necessary positions for chord melody based on the notes found at the lowest fretboard positions on the first five strings. That is to say, I decide on the key based on the area of the fretboard I prefer that contains the lowest notes of the melody. I don't know if that makes sense to y'all, but its the best I can explain it without a guitar in front of me.

EDIT: Another explanation of the above paragraph. If I arbitrarily pick, let's say, the key of F for an arrangement I'm about to create, and I find I run out of fretboard because I need to go "behind the nut," I'll move the arrangement up to the necessary key to find the chord melody position at the open, first, or second frets. END EDIT.

When I just sit down behind the steel and futz around, I seem to gravitate to Eb, Bb, F, C, A, D, E and G with no particular preference. Kind of stream-of-consciousness playing. I like to use open strings in combination with fretted strings and I find my licks most naturally in those keys.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 08 February 2004 at 12:41 PM.]

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Herb S.,

Your very welcome, and thank you for the informative reply. There is something very special about the C6th tuning. Warning!! It could be hazardous, if a player is prone to fatigue. Seriously,though, I find it hard to move away from my newly homemade single, C6th steel. It's different in appearance from anything built to date. I'm absolutely overwhelmed by the new design. I actually believe that it is patent worthy. What an absolute joy to have succeeded in developing a new concept.

Thanks for the song titles. It's nice to hear from you once again.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 08 February 2004 at 01:10 PM.]

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Wouldn't it make a great deal of sense, to substitute knee levers, as a matter of choice, in place of pedal changes, on a 10 string, single-neck, tuned to C6th? I am reasoning that the knees do not require the visual aspects of pedals, neither do they command a major concentration, or discriminatory approach, on the part of the performer. Can anyone foresee a specific problem, relating to such an arrangement?

Bill H.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

I know what you mean. There are a lot of pedals on C6, which adds to the difficulty. The problem I see if you were to replace those pedals with all knee levers, is when you need to press two together to get where you need to go. Pressing two knee levers may work in some cases, but only if they are on seperate knees. I guess it could be done. Maybe keeping a couple of foot pedals and just adding more knee levers would make it easier.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Fred G.,

I'm discovering that some of the most pleasing sounds are derived from single note passages, as well as 2 and 3 part harmony notes. I really would like to remain less tempted to opt for the big C6th fat chord sounds. My E9th steel is "loaded for bear" with the pedal and knee arrangements are quite sufficient to overcome multi-chordal written music. If there is a need to consider making changes to fit the simplistically designed C6th, 10 string single "neck", I'll proceed cautiously in that direction.

Bill H.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Interesting. I've never noticed whether or not I find some frets easier to play at--except that playing in 'F' at the first fret in E9 can be tricky, because I have to change my hand position and watch out not to bump the twelfth string tuning peg.

-Travis

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Interesting side note - Herb mentioned "In the Mood" in Ab.
An old and respected swing-era arranger once told me this - that originally the big band sax sections didn't include a baritone, just went with 4 pieces. When Ellington added Harry Carney to his band on baritone, the resulting huge sound sent band leaders scrambling to try to cop it without adding personnel.
As a result, the key of Ab became a favoured key to score things in, as Ab was the lowest note available on the tenor saxophone.
Sorry for the digression, but I guess it relates. I'm an inexperienced steeler, but in picking keys I just make sure I don't run out of neck, and sometimes figure in the use of open strings as a factor.
-John

Ken Williams · From: Arkansas

When deciding on a key for an instrumental, like many others, I try to center the song where the high parts are not too high and low parts are not beyond the rollers. Bb, F,E, D or C are pretty common keys for me, but it would depend on the song.
I think another slight consideration when selecting a key, might be given to the band. If you have limited amount of time to rehease, a song that contains 6 or 7 chords may be fairly easy in the key of C, but more of a strain if the song were in say, Db. I figure, the more comfortable they are with the changes, the more comfortable I will be, which will result in a better performance.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

John S.,

Isn't it sort of a wonderment, when you consider the reasons for different song titles, to be played in designated keys? Some basic rule may apply, of which I would know very little about. I have an old friend, who was a stickler for playing songs during practice sessions, in specified keys. It didn't matter to him, how the song was written, as long as my bar located the written key. He played rhythm for me for many years in practice sessions, for home entertainment. To my knowledge, his chord savvy, in this city of 50,000 people was unsurpassed, as applied to old standards, commonly heard through the decades. Of course, I'm a country boy, and he never objected to playing my favorites. I had a lot of fun at times, trying to baffle him by switching keys. I'd pick a song, such as, "Blueberry Hill" or "Battle Hymn Of The Republic", and deliberately change keys, mostly in sharps and flats. He had a method of locating the different keys, by sounding the root note. He would always enjoy those little atypical
maneuvers, that were played at unannounced intervals. I think the open string advantages, on the Spanish guitar, far exceed those of the steel guitar, and the fret markers, mainly on the latter, represents a "guiding Zone", that we train upon. There is no question in my mind about the advantages of selected keys, for selected songs. A good example would be, to consider the song called, "Foggy Mountain Breakdown", and the method of keeping the middle range (G) note ringing at the beginning. The "Guitar Boogie" is another good example of an average stumbling block, for a guitarist, or steel guitarist. On the other hand, versatility in key changes, outweighs any conceivable notions, opined to resist established means, to move about freely on the fretboard. Each fret should represent an equal value; nothing more, nothing less. The C6th neck is a good proving ground, to support this concept.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 12 February 2004 at 01:34 AM.]

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

S.G.F.M.,,

May I partake in a few minor unfinished details, that will hopefully elicit a few responses, from learned individuals, and others, who normally read into basic musical problems put before them? I read Paul Franklin's reply that informed readers of his first string, on his 6th tuning. He had written that he tunes the 6th tuning, 1st string to a (D note). I tried that this morning, and as a result, cancelled out very important accesses to melody lines. I understand that pedals and knee-levers would facilitate restoring the original pitch to a (G) note. I need to know more about why the (D note) is more practical to Paul, and others who tune their steel in this manner. The information would be helpful, should anyone care to fill in the blanks.

Bill H.

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

I like the D on top as you get those second intervals on strings 3 1 2 in that order (open position C D E) without bar movement.

If you have a 3rd string raise (C to C#), you regain the lost voicing CEG at the 3rd fret, strings 4 3 2.

That lever allows you to go between major and minor triads on that string grouping, very handy!

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

The D on the first string is very important in my playing. One, it is the Tonic of the 5th pedal D7 chord.

There are so many ways to use that D, too numerous to mention here at this time. For Jazz and the old stanards it is very useful.

I like the G on top too, but found the D more useful, and as John McGann notes, if the C to C# third string is added, go up three frets and get that old triad.

I put that C# on the Boowah pedal, and find it much more useful and use the knee lever saved for my 5th string G Whole tone drop to the sub-Dominant, F and F maj7-9 position.

.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

John M.,

What of the original C6th tuning, of which is proudly hailed, as THE TUNING to consider. In this situation, is changing or "DUMPING" old standardized tunings, accepted throughout the industry? I can remember years ago, when I made changes on a Fender 1000. The nine neck was tuned down to a root D note to insure a safer, applicative effect, relative to string breakage. I removed the 7th string F# note, and used a treble string, at the 8th string position, tuned open to a B note. I selected a .017 treble for the crying effect, which was made possible by raising the 8th string to a natual 7th., by installing a half tone raise on a knee lever. That kitten could purrr
big-time, and the tremolo effect was second to none, due to the tipping, and waving of the bar, on the 8th string. I feel that the natural 7th note is enhanced by utilizing the tremolo effect. I was working up to making a strong point, about changing tunings to suit ones needs in musical expression. After removing the 7th string, F# note, I had a friend who visited, and who was familiar with the original 9th tuning. He'd sit down, and plunk a few notes, and immediately point out the missing note. I was learning on my own at the time, and I wasn't aware of instructions, that could be ordered through music stores. Later I met helpful steel guitarists, who suggested moving up to a 10 string guitar. I didn't mention dropping the 2nd chromatic string, by excluding it from the tuning. It was suggested that the Fender 1000 tuning was in part a 13th tuning. My mind races back to those early days, when I read about tuning changes, such as, a G note to a D note, on the universal C6th tuning. I suggested, attempting to play acceptably, without the use of pedals, in this thread, in an effort to obtain feed-back on the need for certain pedal changes. Information gathered in this manner, could prove to be useful, in future training of the senses, when musical expression, will without doubt, continue to excel the majority of human pleasures.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 12 February 2004 at 04:13 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Having the D on top means you can split P7 so you can play strings 5 4 1 and press either P4 or P7 to get the sound of going from an add9 to a major chord same as pressing Apedal in A+B position on the E9.
The D note also is useful for keeping the same note on top while changing between chords that are located on nearby frets.

If one has the C-C# raise on both string 3 & 7 on a knee lever one not only gets the major triad on strings 4 3 2. Together w P5 one gets all the top 9 strings so at 3rd fret P5 + str3&7 to C# gives F A C E G A C E G from str 10 to 2. Meaning if you tuned the neck to Eb6 you would have A C E G A C E G on open strings (with a F note on 10th and 1st string) w P5 and 3&7 up a half tone.

The D note on top also lets you have 5 positions for playing pentatoniv minor stuff on the top 5 strings



 


example


 


Am pentatonic = 


 


A - - C - D - E - - G


 


on string 4 that would be frets


 


0 - - 3 - 5 - 7 - - 10  


 


Here is the beauty


 


Fret 0 no pedals/levers


-


-


Fret 3 use P5 & 3rd str lowered a halftone (standard C6 lever)


-


Fret 5 use 3rd string lowered a halftone


-


Fret 7 use P6


-


-


Fret 10 use P5 & 3rd string lowered a halftone


 


Stay on strings 5 thru 1 and play all the pentatonic ideas that you can come up with.

So my favorite positions for playing in the key of A would be all the frets mentioned above + fret 9 where the no pedals A6 is located + fret2 where the P6+P7 is and the 4th fret where the P6 would be my dom7th Achord. All depends on where I am heading and which chord melody note is next to play.

Bengt Erik Erlandsen
ZumSteel S12extE9
JCH D10

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 February 2004 at 02:56 AM.]

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