C6th Players- What do you DO with this???

Lincoln Goertzen · From: Taylor, British Columbia, Canada

I have a double neck steel, and E9th came very easily. I could figure out how to play the melody to songs I knew, and the changes all seemed to make sense. I am completely at home on E9th.

I have tried to get to know the C6th neck the same way, but it is a different animal!!!

Do you mostly play the melody, something like an E9th approach, with appropriate harmony notes?

Do you mostly play licks, and improvised parts?

Do you play the melody in jazzed-up single-string lines?

Do you play the melody, and harmony notes, and a little bit on those bass strings to emphasize the chord?

I know, someone is going to reply and say, "YES! All the above!" What I want to know is, am I on the right track, trying to play this way? Do all these things work, in appropriate songs?

What kind of songs work best for C6th? I have been trying to play the same songs on both E9th and C6th.

Thank you for your time.

Lincoln

Gordon Borland · From: San Antonio, Texas, USA

I view the C6th more like a piano keyboard and the E9th like a 6 string guitar. You can play a scale on an E9th in one fret position
using pushes and pulls and going from bottom to top strings. I think of scales on the C6th
as going more left to right on the neck by frets. Yes the pros can do either. The point is that for me, the C6th lends itself to playing melody with full chords. So its "Fraulein" on the E9th so you can dazel the melody with quick grace notes and hot licks but then to "swing it" its the C6th so you can keep the melody on the top and easly stack "Fat" cords underneath. When the dance floor is full and the tune needs to continue for another round of leads we sometime do the next round in "Swing". This also helps the drummer in the last set because he does not have to think as much like alternating the kick and snare for the E9th he just has to hit the kick and snare on every beat together for "Swing". One time we started Fraulein in "Swing" and then on the second go round of leads we went to two four and the drummer fell down.
I only play on weekends and Iam not a pro so I am just giving my take on the two necks.

(my drummer was watching me write this thread and I stuck that dumb comment about the drummer just to crack him up)

------------------
Gordon Borland
MSA D10,NASHVILLE 400,SESSIONS 2000,PEAVEY ADDVERB,SOME WIRES AND A BATTERY.

[This message was edited by Gordon Borland on 13 February 2004 at 07:29 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Yes, I'd say you have the answers right there!

Assuming you can recognize C6th sound, try playing some simple C6th songs (like "Beyond the Reef", or "B. Bowman Hop") on the C6th neck. (Trying to play E9th instrumentals and licks on C6th will drive most anyone up a wall!)

As for "melody playing", the technique is the same as E9th. Find the single note melody line, learn it, and then try to find appropriate harmonies either with or without pedals. ("Licks" are nowhere near as popular on C6th as they are on E9th.) If there isn't a teacher nearby, or another player you can go and see, then get a video or two to help you along.

Due to the increased chordal possibilities of C6th, expect it to take slightly longer than it took you to "be at home" on E9th.
(That's my 2cents.)

Good luck!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Gordon and Donny are absolutely correct.

I will add the following. If you had had the advantage of playing lap steel prior to playing a pedal steel guitar, the dilemma you face now in trying to rationalize the two necks in all likelyhood would not be.

Prior to pedals (as we know them today), there were three main tunings used on lap steels:

1. E13th

2. A6th

3. C6

When Budd Isaacs added a lone pedal on his steel on his E neck, he in essence combined the top two tunings. That left and E/A neck and a C6th neck.

When the double neck pedal steel emerged, all of us who had evoloved just felt right at home with C6 now having pedals. In fact we loved it, because we were having to slant the bar all over the place to get things that now pedals gave us; plus so much more.

Having said that, try the following on for size:

on E9th "Home base" is the 4th string with strings 4, 5 and 6 being the most important strings that just about most things work off of.

Now on C6, strings 3, 5 and 6 are "home base". Same situation, same spelling of a major chord as in the last paragraph. The difference is there is NO A B and C pedals to give us a moving tone we use soooo easily on E9th to go from a I to IV chord; or V to I chord in a major to major resolve.

But this has its advantages. In that C6 is not mainly a "country" neck. It is a powerful jazz and pop neck so to speak. So based on the above, fool around with home basing at first. Play along with a song you normally played on E9th and just get use to those 3 strings as you "find" the chords. Then add string 4 and do the same thing.

Just work on strings 3, 4, 5 and 6 and maybe the octave 2nd string. Try strumming all 4 strings or 3 of them or all 5 of them as you just chord along with songs you are familiar with on E9th. Leave the other strings alone for now. Don't use any pedals at first. Just see if you can find the chord positions on this neck on songs you are familiar with on the E neck.

Try finding some chords that will fit the song but are NOT located at the typical I IV and V frets. This is important.

Remember the home base strings. Then try pedal 6, and note the voicing of those 5 strings. Then try the 5th pedal and note the voicing on those strings. Then the 7th pedal, etc. Again see if you can make some things fit at the NON I, IV and V frets.

Now try pedals 5 and 6 using those 5 strings. Move down one fret or up one fret, or two frets, etc. See again if you can find "that" chord at another position.

As you do this, your ears will begin to hear some changes you have NOT heard on your E9th neck. But are very needed and often played sounds on a lot of what you hear that is NOT country

As you do this and your brain begins to get acclimated to these new sounds, try to work them in to some songs.

Then add other strings and see what happens to the voicings, then add other pedals and combinations and by all means do NOT forget to ocassionaly gap your grip. C6 is a perfect tuning for this.

And what is gap your grip? Ok it is picking strings 3, 5 and 8 or 4, 6 and 9 (or 10) etc. Do this as you engage pedals. Or strings 2, 3 and 5 with pedal 5; or 5 and 6; or 3, 4 and 6 with pedal 6; or strum strings 9 thru 3 with pedals 6 and 7 engaged.

You will hear some very powerful chords and on some of them you will often hear dissonance; and that just adds to the incredible C6 use in jazz and pop music. Dissonance is like what you get on the E9th neck when you pick strings 5, 6 and 9 with the A pedal engaged.

Use the strum often, this adds great voicings in many cases. As Jeff Newman once said, "just grab a whole bunch of them when you strum". Very wise words by the world's greatest PSG teacher.

It will not be easy at first. But don't hesitate to try all kinds of combinations; even using some open strings with other barred strings.

In time you and your ears will become cultured to this awesome neck. You have nothing to lose and sooooooo very much to gain if you have patience and dedication.

When you have mastered the chording scenario, try your hand at just some simple "jazz" or "jamming" licks, using only your thumb and middle finger as you pick single strings. Try to make the notes say something rather than just notes without meaning even though they remain in the chord structure. This is yet another of the C6th's incredible treasures.

May Jesus richly bless you in your quests,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 10 February 2004 at 08:08 PM.]

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 10 February 2004 at 08:12 PM.]

Lincoln Goertzen · From: Taylor, British Columbia, Canada

Fantastic!!!

Thank you very much, Gordon, Donny, and Carl. That all made sense to me.

I can figure out the chords, and the melody lines all right. That much is not a big problem. But I don't have any other players near by, so I didn't know what I should be trying on there.

Thank you for your help.

Lincoln

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

San Antone Rose!
If you can learn the primay and secondary chord positions for this tune you can play pretty much every Western Swing tune known to man, which will lead to soooo much more!

Jeff Newman has a great course that will have you Swingin' in no time!

The most important thing to remember is...
C6th is Waaaay easier than E9th!!!

It's a total "slam dunk" with just a few quick tips! (of course this mainly applies Swing music, at first).

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Check out this thread:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007099.html

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Awesome defintions here..

Carl..is this a free lesson or do we need to anti-up ?

Several months ago, after playing Steel many years.it became apparant that the C6th tuning is really quite unbelievable..non ending..non restricting..like a Piano !

I began a re-learning and started just as described above..from scales.(duhh)

Being a guitar player for ever and playing out of basic scale pockets is a normal deal.I think when we all play the E9th tuning we grow to lean on the AB pedals and not really take a breath and reflect on the music and whats in front of us..as you can really play a ton of music in the AB mode..

not the same beast on the lower ten..

My re-eduaction has been playing scales across the fret board and within a small left/right pocket which really opened up the can of worms. I have been attempting to apply the same scales in several positions on the fretboard which took the can of worms into the bucket of worms arena..I recall something Jody Carver mentioned as well..which was basically learn to play it all without the Pedals, learn where the music is then go back and use the pedal changes to enhance what it is you are doing. Now I don't know if you can do everything like that in that format ( obviously) but I can tell ya this..there's a lot of dang music on this neck without any pedals what-so-ever ! Then when you add , 5,6 or 7..geeze...

Thanks guys for the continued insight..great stuff..

t

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

Wonderful observations, Carl! I'd like to add that I've observed some players trying to learn C6 by trying to "translate" their E9 licks and techniques. You really have to sublimate your E9 knowledge. Listen to some of the great C6/E13 players like Leon McAuliffe, Noel Boggs, Speedy West, Vance Terry, Joaquin Murphy and Curly Chalker to get an idea of what your aiming for. As far as what songs to play, any of the old swing songs with a I-IV-V progression are great for getting your feet wet.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Lincon, good on you going for that C6 thing. It will pay off eventually.

Crowbear lent me som Buddy Emmons Swinging TAB, you should dig some up if you can.
It goes a LONG way to getting you aclimatized on C6. And the tunes are all good.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

I'm an older (not old) musician having spent most of my life on 6 string guitar piano, and bass. I've been playing pedal steel for just under a year and I have been feeling at home and having lots of fun on my E9 neck. Don't get me wrong, I have a very, very long way to go, but from my point of view that C6 neck is where I want to spend most of my time. It is the most beautifully laid out tuning that has me feeling like I'm flying one day then just as confused and baffled the next.
Find some outside resources to help you. Whether it be a teacher, videos, or audio/book lessons. C6 is a different animal. But I have a feeling that if we spend the extra time to become competent, it will make heads turn when we play.

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