| Author |
Topic: Removing Harshness from my Tone |
John Peay
From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 9:51 am |
|
Some recent threads have got me thinking again (I know, bad idea!)...In general I'm pretty happy with my sound, but, well, you all know how it goes...
I'd like to take some of the edge off my sound, it seems a bit harsh, grainy, or something like that. My current chain is Derby SD-10 with Trutone Pickup -> Hilton VP -> Roland Cube 80XL amp. I've got the cube dialed in pretty well, even got a beam blocker on it.
Which would give me the biggest bang for my buck:
1. Black Box
2. Lil Izzy
3. Freeloader
4. Something else ? (I know...practice...or a tube amp, ha?)
Of course tone is subjective, but looking for ideas and what others have experienced. Thanks in advance...
Last edited by John Peay on 7 Sep 2014 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 11:01 am
|
|
Various value potentiometers 10K to 250K potentiometer wired in parallel with the true tone pickup would be worth trying.
_________________
Excel D10 8&4, Supro 8, Regal resonator, Peavey Powerslide, homemade lap 12(a work in progress) |
|
|
|
Pete Nicholls
From:
Macon, Georgia, USA
|
|
|
|
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 11:35 am
|
|
| At the risk of insulting you,, may I suggest swapping out the Hilton pedal for a pot pedal. And if necessary increase the length of your cord to tweak out some of the highs. Putting the capacitance at the cords has a remarkable different effect than just adjusting the amp tone controls. Eliminating the Hilton's buffer may allow for a pleasing interaction between the loading of the amp, cord and foot volume pot to give you a more pleasing and less sterile tone. It's easy to try and may give you a few more variables to play with. |
|
|
|
John Peay
From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 11:42 am
|
|
| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
| At the risk of insulting you,, may I suggest swapping out the Hilton pedal for a pot pedal. |
Greg...hey, no way a suggestion like that would insult me, especially from a player such as yourself. This is just the type of thing I'm asking for, and am going to try it.
I have played with different cord lengths and makes and do notice some difference here as well.
Thanks for the suggestions so far, all of you, much appreciated! |
|
|
|
Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 12:32 pm
|
|
John,
Several Roland Cube 80 users have been successful in "blocking" the speaker; actually placing an old CD in front of the center of the speaker. The Roland and Evans amps are known for having all the high end you'll ever need. . . and then some.
My solution is to always recommend running the entire system with low impedance outputs from the guitar to the speaker, thus eliminating the undesirable effects of stray capacitance from guitar cords etc. Why would you want the pleasing sound and overtones from an expensive instrument to be dependant on the unknown capacity of a random guitar cord? Of course I think everybody should have at least two Li'l Izzys and a spare. Regardless, The case for using low impedance is compelling. Consider recording and broadcast studios and sound stages, places where perfect audio is a must. High impedance outputs simply won't be found in these places. These days, too many top professional players are enjoying the low impedance advantages of a Freeloader, Match Box, Li'l Izzy or some other buffer to go after that "Gary Carter" tone. Problem is, this is the guitar industry and those famous six words keep getting in the way. . .
"We've Always Done It This Way."
Try "blocking" the speaker. Hope you find that special sound John. We've all chased it.
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
|
|
|
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 2:20 pm
|
|
The case for low impedance from the guitar's pickup to the amp input is far from compelling. Most of the truly awesome sounds created in the history of music were created with a combination of high impedance pickups and analog pots, cords and maybe a few effects boxes in between. The right choice of cords, pedals, pickups and other items results in a great tone. Sometimes it takes a few years to develop the right combination of equipment. As an electrical engineer I understand the impedance argument and the effect it has on frequency response and phase shift. I also understand how the tones I've heard for the last 40 years were created and what equipment was used to accomplish it.
I run about 15' of George L's from my pedal to the amp, and about 3' from the guitar to a pot pedal and then a reverb pedal (that of course does have an active low impedance output). Nothing random there! It was all trial and error and purposely tuned. I have extensively used the Hilton and LDR2 pedals and a single Lil Izzy (1st generation), all fine products. They just don't produce the classic tone and dynamics that I prefer. |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 2:23 pm
|
|
I've had great success using a Sarno FreeLoader. My Roland 80XL Cubes sound much better with it in the chain. I do use a pot volume pedal, though.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 2:31 pm
|
|
John, you can check out my signal chain and tone when you come to Olympia for our visit. Mullen D-12 (Lawrence 912 humbucking pickup on E9 neck) > Lil Izzy > Telonics volume pedal > Stereo Steel amp+preamp > Telonics 15 spkr in Telonics cabinet.
A lot of tone is one's attack with the right hand, too.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 9:26 pm
|
|
John, curious why you have an izzy back to back with a telonics vol pedal.
The telonics pedal has a very high end preamp/buffer already...? |
|
|
|
Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 10:20 pm
|
|
I'm thinking its your amp. Not good enough for psg.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
Last edited by Godfrey Arthur on 7 Sep 2014 7:38 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 6 Sep 2014 11:26 pm
|
|
Tom, I think it is either the fact that it puts a low Z signal before the first cable, or that Craig's circuit just does tasty things to the sound. Notice some folks use an Izzy, BB AND a Hilton or Telonics pedal.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 8:00 am
|
|
Tom, the proof is in the listening. With Li'l Izzy, my tone just has more presence, pop, and string separation. More highs, which I control at the preamp knobs. It's really easy to A/B the Izzy and see whether you like it. I like it a lot.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 9:33 am
|
|
I know it may be a shameless self promotion, but the Steel Guitar Black Box is completely and absolutely in this world to be a steel guitar harshness remover & tone enhancer. It's the king of harshness removal. I don't know of any other single device that allows for clear and sparkly low wound strings and simultaneously giving pleasing and sweet high registers and also radically reducing that midrange and upper-mid harshness and also smoothing out the glassy, hard top end.
It's magical with respect to harshness removal. With the full control over the impedance loading of the pickup, you take harshness control to a whole new level. It's the perfect tool for this. That's why we make it.
http://www.sarnomusicsolutions.com/products/sgbb.html
Brad |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 9:36 am
|
|
developing your touch with the picks can help alot.
also a steel guitar amp with a full tone would help. |
|
|
|
Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 9:58 am
|
|
[quote="Brad Sarno"]I know it may be a shameless self promotion, but the Steel Guitar Black Box is completely and absolutely in this world to be a steel guitar harshness remover & tone enhancer. It's the king of harshness removal. I don't know of any other single device that allows for clear and sparkly low wound strings and simultaneously giving pleasing and sweet high registers and also radically reducing that midrange and upper-mid harshness and also smoothing out the glassy, hard top end.
It's magical with respect to harshness removal. With the full control over the impedance loading of the pickup, you take harshness control to a whole new level. It's the perfect tool for this. That's why we make it.
http://www.sarnomusicsolutions.com/products/sgbb.html
Brad[/quote]
I can't find any way to agree with Brad more. He is absolutely correct. |
|
|
|
Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 12:33 pm
|
|
Pardon if we stray off topic, but when I think of remarkable tone, I think of Lloyd Green at Panther Hall, Buddy Charleton or Jimmy Day on an old birdseye maple Sho~bud. Indeed their sound was wonderful, but who can say what those masters of tone might have sounded like with a Black Box, Izzy, Freeloader or Matchbox? Now matter how good it is. . . might it be a little better?
Thumbs Carllile told of the first time he went to Hawaii with Roger Miller. Thumbs commented on how beautiful the place was. Roger replied: "Imagine what God could have done if He'd had a little money."
Respectfully,
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
|
|
|
Roger Francis
From:
kokomo,Indiana, USA
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 3:36 pm
|
|
| chris ivey wrote: |
developing your touch with the picks can help alot.
also a steel guitar amp with a full tone would help. |
I agree with what Chris said, as you can see by my signature what i use, the cube stays home and the other 2 do all the work. I have 2 sets of JF finger picks and bunches of red (john pearse?) thumb picks, i did an experiment with the JF picks, i bent one pair out away from my finger tips and the other set closer to my finger tips and played a phrase on my guitar and kept switching from one pair to the other, playing the same exact phrase same fret not moving my rt hand and doing it over and over again and kept getting the same results, the ones farthest from my finger tips kept giving me a harsher tone. But could be total oppisite for someone else, Im convinced that your fingers and picks play a very big role on your over all tone. Some parts of any given song determin where i pick the strings, closer to the pickup or farther away. I think if you master your rt hand and experiment with your picks you can achieve a tone that no matter what amp you use or volume pedal, you can have a decent tone, amps pickups brand of strings cords etc will enhance or take away from YOUR tone that you are trying acheive. Im very satisfied with the tone im getting with what im using but i still work on my picking exercise every chance i get.
_________________
Rittenberry SD10, 2 nashville 112s with telonics speaker, behringer EPQ450 power amp, 705 pups, Telonics FP-100, live steel strings, mogami cords, wet reverb |
|
|
|
Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 4:13 pm
|
|
Roger,
Good post. A couple of years ago I sat down one day and couldn't get any harmonics. Harmonics were never hard for me, but all of a sudden, no matter what I did, I couldn't get chimes. Then I discovered that I had picked up the wrong thumb pick. . . same color, but a much thicker pick than usual. Put the correct thumb pick on and I had harmonics galore.
Keep in mind, I've only been playing since 1966. I mentioned the pick episode to one of the top steel players and he said: "What. . . you mean to tell me you didn't know that?" No, I didn't know it, but I know it now. A pick that is too thick will mute the string and throw cold water on the harmonics and overtones. Now I pay attention to my picks and even polish the metal ones with a Dremel tool and mag wheel compound. As Roger mentioned. . . using the right pick and using it correctly makes a major difference in your sound.
Pass it on.
Craig.
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
|
|
|
Roger Francis
From:
kokomo,Indiana, USA
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 4:50 pm
|
|
Craig you must have started playing steel when you were just a toddler! 😃
I like the izzy so much i gave it a permanent home, sorry if its not advertising for ya but if someone says wow what great tone ill just let them look under the hood😊
_________________
Rittenberry SD10, 2 nashville 112s with telonics speaker, behringer EPQ450 power amp, 705 pups, Telonics FP-100, live steel strings, mogami cords, wet reverb |
|
|
|
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
|
Posted 7 Sep 2014 5:05 pm
|
|
One more voice for Brad Sarno's Steel guitar Black Box, and much as I love and use Keith Hilton's VP, it's still notably easier for me to get a fat, lush tone from a pot pedal...  |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 8 Sep 2014 2:59 am
|
|
My thought.. maybe you don't have the tone dialed in with the Roland as you may feel... Before you go crazy borrow an amp, maybe a Fender tube amp...or a PV Steel amp....compare...take a listen.
Guitar > Hilton Vped > amp
nothing else in the chain...
start with a known reference...
My gut tells me you are killing yourself with MID freqs...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
|
Posted 10 Sep 2014 7:54 am
|
|
Try an amp with a 15" speaker. Black Widows also do not have the edgeyness of a JBL.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
|
|
|
Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
|
Posted 10 Sep 2014 8:25 am
|
|
You also may want to remove the Beam Blocker. Those are intended to block the narrow and direct beam that comes straight off a speaker, but since we never ever aim an amp speaker at our ears, that device would only be for the audience's benefit.
And in practice, I've found that the Beam Blockers actually reflect some harsh sounds off to the sides and make the tone worse. I'm not a fan of that device at all. There are better ways to block or absorb the beam using foam and carpet etc.
But assuming that your amp is NOT aimed at your head, that would not be a way too approach this harshness issue. We should always listen to our speakers "off axis", never in front of the center-line, never!!! It's the fast road to hearing damage and painful tinnitus and hyper-acusis.
Also, people who aim their speaker center-lines directly at their ears seem to always dial in the worst tones and are never happy with it.
Brad |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 10 Sep 2014 8:33 am
|
|
To underscore Brad's last point, notice that sound techs never aim a mic at the dust cap, but at a point a third of the way out...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
