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Topic: measuring pickup output |
Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2014 5:19 am |
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| What makes one pickup "hotter" than another? Is it something you can measure with a meter? |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2014 6:46 am
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| Typically a hot pickup is referring to the output of the pickup and one of the major determinants is the number of windings of wire around the pickup magnet(s) and a way to measure that is by resistance -ie- the more resistance- the more windings - and that can be measured by an ohm meter. The caveat is that, all other things being equal(which they rarely are)- the more windings the less bright the output is but the more volume it will have. |
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Michael Brebes
From:
Northridge CA
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Posted 19 Aug 2014 6:49 am
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Another factor is the strength of the magnets. The stronger the magnets the higher the output. Usually stronger magnets have a brighter sound.
_________________
Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso
Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100 |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2014 7:49 am
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| Adding another element, what about the installation? Would the distance between pickup and strings affect "hotness"? Also, is there a standard distance? |
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Timothy Foster
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2014 8:56 am
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Oooooh. Over-anxious new forum member here - I'll take a crack at it! 
Moving the string closer to the pickup increases volume up to a point where the magnet begins to saturate – then it starts producing a distorted signal instead of simply getting "louder". You could see it on an oscilloscope -- before saturation you'll have a nice symmetrical sine wave that simply gets bigger/louder in amplitude... after, things get a bit off kilter and jagged. In theory, the nerdy engineer would want to get the pickup as close to the string as possible before saturation for ideal S/N ratio in the system.
In practice, I think it would be hard to define a standard height as it depends on your playing style (getting the string too close to the pickup will decrease sustain a bit), string gauges, string alloy, pickup design -- and an oscilloscope to figure it out! Someone looking for a high gain tone may like the extra grit/harmonics caused when a pickup reaches saturation, or the fact that they’re hitting their amp a bit hotter for more drive. I know I’ve had better luck with lower/medium output pickups and don't like them tooooo close… but that probably has more to do with my particular amp, pedal chain and tastes.
so... all that to say: "whatever works for ya!" |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 21 Aug 2014 9:31 am
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I was unaware that a pickup itself could put out a saturated signal; I'd assumed the saturation happened at the first transistor or tube it saw.
But this definitely doesn't surprise me. And I run my pickups where they're not going to saturate unless the strings get assaulted hard.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Timothy Foster
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2014 9:47 am
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Yeah -- to be honest I've only actually noticed it one time, with a strat. Being in rock bands I would always crank my pickups really high for no good reason other than I assumed: more louder is more better? I had bad taste in tone then...
With this particular guitar, I noticed there was a point where the tone started to get "ice-picky" and harsh sounding when the bridge pickup was cranked beyond a certain point -- through a low gain amp channel with plenty of headroom.
Years later I got into DIY amps and studio gear, and eventually picked up a used o'scope. While first screwing around with it I plugged that guitar directly in and sure enough... the waveform of a plucked E string started to change around the point at which things started sounding awkward.
I don't know that I'd draw much from that example though, I'm sure in some cases the saturation effect may be pleasing? I've heard that said of P90's and a particular magnet alloy, though I forget which...
You're right though - the saturation that anyone would perceive as such is probably generated by the first gain stage in your setup... I don't know if pickup saturation would ever reach a point of outright distortion; probably a more mild effect resulting in weird overtones/harmonics. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 22 Aug 2014 4:55 am
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I have to take issue with Jim Palenscar about the hotter pickups (higher resistance) being less bright. The whole "tone suck" thing arises with passive volume pedals loading the pickup more at higher frequencies than lower - hence the "less bright" thing, or "woolly top end".
With a pre-amp, or an active volume pedal, these things are not a worry.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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David Stilley
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 22 Aug 2014 5:01 am You were never a head banger were you Lane?
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Hi everyone,
| Lane Gray wrote: |
I was unaware that a pickup itself could put out a saturated signal; I'd assumed the saturation happened at the first transistor or tube it saw.
But this definitely doesn't surprise me. And I run my pickups where they're not going to saturate unless the strings get assaulted hard. |
Lane, You've probably not been exposed to that like rock guitarists are. Metal Head String Shreaders like to add distortion to ALL phases of the signal, Pickup/Pedal Board/Preamp/Poweramp/and finally the Speaker!! DiMarrzio (probably spelled that wrong) has been making a guitar pick up for years, the "Super Distortion Humbucker" a stand by of the shreader devotee! I think they've been around since the late 70's but I might be wrong. I have an old 80's Schaller humbucker that has the thickest magnet bars I've ever seen on a pickup. It's pretty crunchy sounding. And as Timothy said, you have to be careful about how close this one is to the strings or you start to affect the sustain. I think it was also called a "Super Distortion" but my brain cells don't all hold hands like they used to   .
_________________
GFI Ultra U-12 7+5 E9/B6, Roland Cube 80XL, Telonics FP-100 Volume pedal with TMRS remote sensor (courtesy of Dave Beaty and Telonics) |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 22 Aug 2014 7:06 am
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| In regards to Will's comment, it has been my experience- again- all other things being equal- the tone of the pickup gets less bright as the resistance increases.Perhaps better stated- in my experience I have noticed that there is a thinner tone with less resistance with or w/o the volume pedal being in the loop. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Aug 2014 7:10 am Pickup Distortion
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Timothy,
Welcome aboard. Sounds like you bring some valuable experience to the forum. The saturation distortion you mention was widely recognized back in the tape recorder days. Magnetic tape saturation has long been associated with the treasured "warm" sound that is so well liked. It probably contributed to making some of the old 33 albums sound so pleasing. No doubt there is a connection between the saturation distortion presented by tape recorders and guitar pickups.
Will,
With all respect, keep in mind, the "hotter" a magnetic pickup is, (ie, the more windings) the higher the output impedance will be. The tone "suck" problem is not a factor of resistance, but high impedance. That's why guys like Brad Sarno and myself offer products to preserve all of those wonderful overtones you paid for when you bought that expensive guitar. You'll never know how good your guitar can sound until you eliminate "tone suck" with a good buffer directly following the pickup. Using a well-designed buffer, nothing can load down the pickup, regardless of it's impedance.
Jim Palenscar is well-known for offering good advice.
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 23 Aug 2014 11:51 am
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Yes Craig, it's impedance not resistance, but I suspect relatively few here would run to the math needed for "vector sum of inductive reactance and resistive components". Most simplify it to "resistance". More windings = more inductance, which means higher impedance ultimately, and of course it increases as frequency rises, "potting-down" the signal more at higher frequencies.
I've always been a champion of buffer amps with very high input impedance so that you avoid "tone suck" with a passive volume pedal. I have no such problems myself with my Telonics VP - it takes care of all that. One day I'll have to take a look at your pre-amps.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Aug 2014 12:41 pm
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Hi Will,
With the equipment you have listed, I imagine that you already sound pretty good, but most players are really surprised when they hear the difference it makes by adding a Freeloader, Matchbox or Li'l Izzy. There may be other good buffers out there as well, but I have not seen them used in the steel guitar community.
All the best to you Will.
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Fred Rushing
From:
Odin, IL, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2014 5:58 pm Mesuring the output of a pick up
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yes you can measure the output of a pick up. find an old telephone central office tech around and he probably has an old HP 400 VTVM. It will measure the output of your pick up. IE signal output from your PU when you pick a string. I am sure there are new high freq volt meters around. A good amp repair shop would have one.
Fred |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2014 10:48 pm
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| An AC volt meter works too. The wild card with any of these methods is inconsistency in picking the string. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Aug 2014 3:02 am
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An E-Bow fixes THAT...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 24 Aug 2014 8:23 am E Bow
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Lane,
You're correct, an E Bow would be an essential part of the test, but what puzzles me is: what can you do with this information once you have it? You can measure output level easy enough with a common volt meter, but loudness meters are rather expensive.
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2014 9:34 am
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You can use an oscilloscope or a true RMS voltmeter... or you can use a normal AC voltmeter and use 60Hz, same thing.
You can put the pickup next to a wire carrying 60Hz, you don't have to use a string... it's just a transducer, it will pick up any electrical activity.
Now if you want to *sweep* the pickup, you have to run a wire (or coil) across it carrying the sweep signal (say, 20Hz to 5kHz), then record readings at a certain interval (say, every 20Hz). Of course, your sweep signal has to be linear itself, the pickup needs to be terminated in an appropriate manner (not just left open)... etc.
Which leads to the point of all this... if you want one that sounds good, you're going to have to play it and listen to it, none of this measurement stuff is going to guarantee that.
_________________
Too much junk to list... always getting more. |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2014 2:04 pm
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One small addendum to what Will said:
"The whole "tone suck" thing arises with passive volume pedals loading the pickup more at higher frequencies …"
Actually a pickup with a lot of windings can experience another effect. The capacitive coupling between the individual turns can act to lower the pickup's self-resonant frequency. That also will reduce the apparent brightness.
This is usually only in extreme cases, 22,000 turns (muddy) versus 10,000 turns (bright) for instance. A high impedance input on the input to whatever box or amp will bring back enough brightness in most cases.
I agree with Jim P's comment that output is directly related to the number of turns on the pickup. That's the part (along with magnetic field) that is hardest to tinker with.
_________________
Excel D10 8&4, Supro 8, Regal resonator, Peavey Powerslide, homemade lap 12(a work in progress) |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 30 Aug 2014 9:14 pm psg
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| This topic is very interesting. My thought is, how does the electronic Hilton VP affect tone, as compared to a 500pot Goodrich VP, L120. I've used a Hilton before and had to turn down the top knob on the bottom of the VP, which I think is the Tone knob. May be something else but there's a major difference in the two VP's. If I remember correctly, the Hilton has a buffer or has something that acts as one. Don't remember. I keep my set up real simple. Excel guitar to Goodrich 120, VP to DD3 and DD3 to NV-400. I ordered the guitar with an extra jack for a tuner. This changed the guitars tone. So I disconnected the jack and removed it. With just the one jack on the guitar the tone improved greatly to what I listen for which is a cross between Hughey, Emmons, Green & Brumley. Mix those four and that's what I shoot for. Of course, the Mooney or west coast sound, I get by pickin' strings close to the pu. Very simple. I'm mainly interested in the buffer thing with the Hilton VP though. Thanks. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 31 Aug 2014 5:22 am Re: measuring pickup output
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| Tommy Boswell wrote: |
| What makes one pickup "hotter" than another? Is it something you can measure with a meter? |
Yes, I guess you could measure it with a meter, an o-scope, or with some other device, but I sorta think it would be rather pointless. Players are far more likely to select a pickup based on it's tone than they are it's output.
The differences you can hear, with a pickup going into a certain amp, are what really matters. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 31 Aug 2014 2:02 pm
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With steel amps running huge gobs of power, I agree: tone trumps power.
If you have a quiet pickup, you can turnip the amp.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2014 9:23 am
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Or if you don't carrot all you can use any old amp...
_________________
Excel D10 8&4, Supro 8, Regal resonator, Peavey Powerslide, homemade lap 12(a work in progress) |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 5 Sep 2014 7:45 am
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| Quote: |
| Paul Arntson wrote: The capacitive coupling between the individual turns can act to lower the pickup's self-resonant frequency. That also will reduce the apparent brightness. |
Good point, Paul, although I've always wondered how much of the highs that shunts away. The distributed capacitance is all in series, so its absolute value has to be quite low. But for sure, the self-capacitance is all part of what makes the PU self-resonant, and hence its "sweet spot". Or honky tonk...
One of the reasons I like the Alumitone concept is that it is a simple magnetic loop PUp, with the signal transformed to a useable level by a tiny internal "current to voltage" transformer. Neat thinking, very original. A bit like the days when the LM3900 broke through and we started using op amps in current oriented circuits instead of voltage.[/quote]
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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