Opinions wanted on Fender Princeton Reverb 65 reissue ?

Larry Lenhart · From: Ponca City, Oklahoma

When I was at the Phoenix non pedal room in January, someone was using one of these amps for their steel, and I thought it sounded great. Now I know that there are lots of variables in the "sounds great equation", but I was wondering how many of you use them for your non pedal steel (or pedal steel or regular guitar for that matter) and what the opinions are on them. I might be at a store soon where I can try one out in person, but would also like to have some field experience feedback on them. Thanks in advance.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

I tried the new Princeton Reverb in the store... I really wanted to like it, but I'm just off of 10" speakers in open-back amps, it really takes a 12" to light me up. The amp will hold a 12" if you cut the baffle hole out (offset the speaker away from the power transformer).
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Darrell Birtcher · Posted 16 Mar 2014 10:23 pm

Hi Larry,
Good to see you again this past week.
I'm with Stephen on this one. A Princeton with a 12" is a really neat amp. The speaker is probably the biggest reason most folks prefer the Deluxe Reverb over the Princeton even though the Deluxe is bigger and heavier.
Give me a call and I'll share some more Princeton info with you.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I've tried the Princeton re-issue and a silver face Princeton side by side with stock speakers. The amps sound about the same but the well worn vintage speaker in the silver face gives it the advantage for mellow tone. The older amp's reverb was also a bit deeper. Definitely go with a 12" speaker. Keep the stock rectifier for guitar but go solid state if you want more kick for steel guitar. I like the amp as is for home practice use but there's tons of mods that will give you more headroom for steel.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Princeton%20Reverb/Princeton%20Reverb.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/1974%20Fender%20Princeton%20Reverb/1974%20Fender%20Princeton%20Reverb.html

Greg

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

I'm with Stephen on this. I had a great 64 PR, traded it for a DR. Like it much better for lap steel. 10" was too shrill.
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Earl Foote · From: Houston, Tx, USA

I use mine a lot for guitar. I tried it for pedal steel at a gig a few weeks ago and liked it just fine. I ran the bass up all the way and backed off the treble to around 2. ( I play a stage one with the BL 705 re-issue p/u) We were playing with a great PA and stage volume was well in control. I would think twice about using it with a real loud band. It doesn't have a lot of low end like some steelers prefer but I like it fine. It has a little "hair" in the tone with the vp floorboarded which I like as well.

EF

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

To my tastes, an old Princeton Reverb is one of the best guitar amps ever made. For a reasonable-volume but generally clean-sounding amp, I don't think there's another amp for a Telecaster that can touch it. I also really like my old '74 silverface (in which I have a JBL MI-series speaker) for lower-volume situations for steel, pedal or non-pedal. People I work with prefer I bring that Princeton for a session - there's just something about that amp with a JBL in it for steel for lower volume session or gig work. I typically run the treble around 5-7, bass around 3-5, depending on the exact guitar and situation, volume to suit, it stays pretty clean like this unless I'm pushing the volume over, say, 7 or 8. Great for E9 pedal steel, the low strings on C6 might overwhelm it a bit unless the volume is down.

On the reissue - I assume you're talking about the blackface reissue? There is a second option, which is a silverface reissue. But the silverface reissue has what is basically a blackface Bassman preamp section. They both sound good, but the silverface reissue has a bit more gain and is a hair more midrangey. I actually think I like the silverface reissue a bit more for guitar - I found the blackface reissue a hair thin-sounding, unlike my old one.

All in all, I strongly prefer an old point-to-point wired silverface amp from the late 60s or early 70s to any reissue, and they can be had for around the same general price as a new reissue of either type. You may have to poke around and haggle at a few guitar shows to find an old silverface Princeton Reverb under a grand, but they're out there, and that's what the new reissue street prices hover around. I emphatically do NOT recommend cutting them out for a 12" speaker - to me, they tend to sound a bit boxy with the larger speaker in there, and you're definitely decimating the value by cutting into the baffle of a vintage amp like this. If you really have to have a 12", just get a Deluxe Reverb. Of course, a Deluxe is also a great amp, I always have at least one, but sometimes a 10" just does it for me.

My take. Of course, it's always a good idea to get out and test drive a few and see if one fits your needs.

Larry Lenhart · From: Ponca City, Oklahoma

Thanks guys, this is the field testing experience I knew I could depend on from the forum ! When I was in the Dallas non-pedal room I heard several of the pros discussing 10" speakers and how much they preferred them over the 12" speakers for low volume situations. These were both steel players and guitar players. When I get to Phoenix in a couple of weeks I will look around some and see if I can check them out for myself. I really appreciate everyone who has contributed taking the time to give me their opinions...thats what I was looking for.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

if it has a printed circuit board and is a "reissue"...i have no interest in it.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

As I said, I was talking about a cutting the baffle on a vintage Princeton Reverb. On these, one can just unscrew the baffle only on blackface and early silverface, up to about '72. After that, you either need to cut the baffle somehow or you could get a different cabinet made - but that's more money.

Beyond that, I just don't think the Princeton box supports a 12" speaker as well as a larger cabinet like that of a Deluxe. To me, they tend to sound a bit boxy with a robust 12" in there. Of course, this is purely a matter of personal taste, but why not just get a Deluxe Reverb if you want a 12" speaker? The main differences are the cab/speaker size, two versus one channel, and the bug vs. bias-modulation tremelo. I admit I prefer the bias-modulation tremelo in the Princeton, but not enough to cut one up.

Beyond all that - there is the issue of shoehorning a serious 12" speaker in there. No problem with an old Jensen C12R/Q or something like that, I know that works fine if that's the kind of speaker you want. But I'd be surprised if I could get something like a 12" JBL or, let's say, a coffee-can EV SRO in a PR box - they usually run into one or more of the tubes, or even sometimes one of the transformers. Maybe something with a neodymium magnet would work, it's usually a large magnet that causes the trouble.

Chris Boyd · From: Leonia,N.J./Charlestown,R.I.

I have a '66 PR and Larry Rodgers made me a baffle for a 12" and aged the grillcloth.. Currently have a coffecan EV SRO which fits perfectly and sounds amazing...this thing cranks!! Used a RI Jensen P12N for years in this little beast with great tones as well...but the SRO... holy moly!! I'm used to using Super Reverbs/Vox AC30 but for smaller rooms or even larger rooms the PR is surprisingly adequate...I still have the original baffle with the '66 Jensen 10"..haven't used it in a decade or more...I should add that I don't use this setup for pedal steel but I'd bet it'd be quite good... haven't tried it !!
My apologies for getting side tracked on the original subject of this thread..
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Earl Foote · From: Houston, Tx, USA

I think one of the main differences between the blackface and silver face (both vintage and re-issue) is the blackface has a tube rectifier and the silverface has a solid state rectifier which could account for the tonal differences that Dave mentioned.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

At least for vintage versions, both silverface and blackface Princeton Reverbs have a tube rectifier. I have played and owned tons of old Princeton Reverbs, and there is not a lot of tonal difference between them. Up to the push/pull 'distortion' knob, the circuits are almost the same, and to my ears, there is more difference from one example to another, owing to component tolerances, transformers, and so on, than between different years.

Chris, that's interesting that you were able to get a 12" coffeecan SRO in there. One of my favorite speakers, I always keep a couple around. I had a silverface years ago that came to me with a 12" speaker baffle - I tried to shoehorn that SRO in there, no dice. That big speaker magnet just ran into the output transformer. As I recall, some of the silverface output transformers were larger, perhaps one of the reasons I tend to like them.

Chris Boyd · From: Leonia,N.J./Charlestown,R.I.

Dave.. I should have mentioned that Larry Rodgers offsets the 12" opening to the right(looking from the back) when building his baltic birch baffles...THAT is why the beastly SRO fits!! Very Happy

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Earl Foote · From: Houston, Tx, USA

Thanks Dave, I stand corrected. Smile

http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/

Mark Hershey · From: New York, USA

Gordon Hartin · From: Durham, NC

I would rather find a builder that can make you a hand wired version the same amp.

http://headstrongamps.com/Lil_King_AMP.html

I'm sure Ken Fox or Tim Marcus could easily build one, but I bet these days Tim would rather build you a Milkman amp instead of a clone.

Gordon

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

Gordon - thanks for the shout out, but a Milkman amp is not even in the same universe as a reissue fender. Those amps are built on very low quality single sided circuit boards - soldered up by a machine - and then slapped together for the McDonalds of music stores: Guitar Center

The reissue Fender amps will sound great for a little bit, and then start to develop problems that most techs will not want to address. Throw it away and get another one… sad business model, but at those prices its not a surprise
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Gordon Hartin · From: Durham, NC

As a Milkman amp owner, I can say the Milkman quality is way above any of the Fender Reissue amps.

What I was trying to say is that an experienced Amp builder, like Tim or Ken, could easily build a Handwired Fender Princeton Reverb Clone and the handwired version would be superior to that of the Fender Reissue.

Also at the same time, Milkman Amps are not in the Clones of old amps, but circuits Tim is designing.

Gordon

Mark Hershey · From: New York, USA

Fraser Moffatt · From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

I owned and played both a '65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue (DRRI) and its little brother the Princeton (PRRI) at one point (six string guitar in an indie rock band setting). I bought the PRRI as a lower volume alternative to the DRRI for smaller gigs and rehearsal. In most situations, I never got the DRRI past about 3 on the volume knob (but hotdamn, that amp just sings at 9).

I didn't mind the 10" speaker in the PRRI, but I experienced the dreaded PRRI "baffle rattle". Where this amp failed me was not volume but tone - anything after about 4 or 5 on the volume knob didn't give any more volume, but did give a lot of mushy tone. I didn't care for it. Sold it on...

I can't see using this amp for clean steel tone at any volume. I also own two original 1964 Gibson Falcon RVTs - pretty much in PRRI territory - neither of those amps are great for steel, either. For a few bucks more MSRP, go for the DRRI.

Just my opinion, your mileage might vary....
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Rookie-ish steel player - currently tinkering around on a BMI S10 and a Guyatone S8. Bassist and vocalist for The Derringers.

Mark Hershey · From: New York, USA

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

now if only someone made a Princeton sized amp with 40W voiced specifically for pedal steel that was under 35lbs... Wink

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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

yeah.....for under $500....that'd be cool!

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