I would like to buy my first pedal steel !

Victor Denance · Post by **Victor Denance** » 20 Jan 2004 1:07 pm

Hi everyone !

I'm Victor from France, I'm 20, and would love to begin pedal steel.
They are extremely uncommon here in France so I've never even seen one. But i really love its sound. Especially on those old country rock recording by the Byrds or Flying Burrito Brothers.
I won't buyy a PS in France (way too expensive, if you can find one).

I would love to receive some advice about what model should I buy for my first PS.

I've read the Carter Starter is a good solution. What do you think about this PS ?
Or should I use my 900$ for a used model ? If so, could you advise me good brands and models ?
I'm interested too in Fender PS. The 800 seems weird to me, because it has 5 pedals and only 1 knee lever. Aren't those PS weird or special?

BTW, could you tell me what PS does the guy in the Byrds (Sweetheart Of The Rodeo album) and in the Flying Burrito Brothers use ? I really love that sound. Mybe the greatest PS sound I've heard on a record.

Thanks a lot for your time and help.

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 20 Jan 2004 1:57 pm

Hi Victor!

It is really hard to answer that question, depends on which musical direction you want to take. Starter models are one solution, but you have to keep in mind that you usually cannot add extra pedals and knee levers (as you progress you might need them or want them!)

Used steels also can be a good solution, if you buy them from one of the well-known suppliers (Scotty, Bobbe Seymour atc.) you always have a guarantee that it is a good working steel, they also inform you about the history of the instrument and are always available if you need advise or have problems). I think all the brand names out on the market today build great instruments (Carter, Zum, Mullen), also the "old" brand names Sho-Bud, Emmons, MSA are great instruments!

Personally I wouldn't buy an instrument without seeing it or trying it (ebay has good offers, but they also have ugly instruments, many times the seller is not familiar with the Steel and cannot answer questions). Keep in mind a good looking instrument might have technical defects that will lead to problems!

The "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" album had Lloyd Green and Jay Dee Maness playing, you are right, they sounded great!

The Flying Burrito Brothers had lots of Sneaky Pete playing (on a Fender single neck).

I bet you will receive lots of good advise from other Forum members on this!

Keep on Pickin'!

Walter
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

------------------

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 20 Jan 2004 3:17 pm

Not sure what you're looking for when it comes to what you like about learning to play the pedal steel......but don't overlook
the greater possibilities of having 4 knee levers along with however many pedals your steel might have. FWIW

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Jan 2004 3:27 pm

I'm interested too in Fender PS. The 800 seems weird to me, because it has 5 pedals and only 1 knee lever.

The Fender 800 was a cable-operated single-10 guitar with double raise/lower capability. It came stock with 6 pedals, and no knee levers. (None of the "cabled" Fenders came with factory-installed knee levers!) The Fenders have a unique sound, and they're very easy to set up, but don't get one unless these two features are paramount to your tastes.

Victor Denance · Post by **Victor Denance** » 20 Jan 2004 4:01 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Do you think a Fender 800 could be a good PS for a beginner ?
What is this "unique Fender sound" ???
Is it the sound that can be heard on the Flying Burrito Brother's song "Christine's Tune" or "Devil In Disguise" ???

What is a good price for a Fender 800 ???

(I know Fender guitars pretty good, but not PS)

Thanks !

nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 21 Jan 2004 12:44 am

Bonjour de la région Parisienne!
It IS a Fender 400 you hear Sneaky Pete playing on the Flying Burritos albums - having said that, I believe it is HEAVILY modified as far as the sound goes (there's certainly a lot of extra knobs and switches on there

and I think an extra pickup, too).
The steel on the Byrds albums is almost all a regular 10-string E9 guitar.
Do a search here on the Forum for lots of information on the Carter Starter - the only thing I would add is, if you are over about 6 feet tall (1m85 - 1m90), your legs probably won't fit underneath it!
General opinion here seems to be that the Fender is NOT a good "beginner" guitar - as in, starting to learn to play PSG - it's almost a separate instrument of its own.
Nick

Niklas Widen · Post by **Niklas Widen** » 21 Jan 2004 1:51 am

Hey Victor! I'm 20 too!

If I were to begin playing today, I think I would go for a used pro model - partly because of the second hand value. When you feel you can move up to a D-10 or just want another guitar, you'd most likely be able to sell your guitar for almost as much as you gave for it. Maybe a used Sho-Bud S-10 would be nice (just not the Maverick) - Sho-Bud is what Lloyd Green played (and still does) on the "Sweethearts" album. But maybe you have to add $500 to find one in nice condition...

/Nicke Widén

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 21 Jan 2004 2:14 am

For beginning, I'd stay away from Fenders. They were great when they came out, but they wewre about the only game in town.
By now the guitars available play easier, and have knee levers.
The *sound* on Flying Burritos is Sneaky Pete. You can't buy his hands-- and THAT is where the sound is.
Just know he's unique and enjoy it.
I'd start with a S10 three pedals 4 knees. That will keep you busy for a LONG time.

Winnie

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 21 Jan 2004 5:31 am

Hi Victor,

Get a nice used Sho-Bud or Marlen S-10, with at least 3 pedals and 2 levers. You should be able to do that for $1300 or thereabouts. Well-known Forum member and hot steel player Ricky Davis knows the whereabouts of a lot of these guitars, and is networked with a bunch of honest people. Ricky also overhauls/restores guitars, so he might be able to point you to one that he's personally tweaked.

If you like the vintage steel tone from the Byrds' album, Sho-Bud or Marlen will give you what you want. I've got 1 Sho-Bud and a couple of Marlens, but I can't bear to part with any of them. So... check with Ricky!

Also talk to Crowbear, David Donald, Nick and the other guys over there- they can give you some good advice.

Rick[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 21 January 2004 at 05:36 AM.]

David Langdon · Post by **David Langdon** » 21 Jan 2004 5:55 am

Hello Victor, you said that steels are expensive in France, and presumably you are prepared to pay the shipping from the USA on a steel that you haven't tried out. You could take a trip across the Channel and visit Gerry Hogans shop in Newbury UK. I'm sure he could sort you out a good deal on either a used steel, or a good new one. I think he does GFI and starter Carters.
If you do buy a student model, get something where you can change/add knee levers to. I was lucky and started on a ZB student, an all pull guitar. I had five knees on it in the end and it also had good tone and stability for a student model. You would also get the chance to try out a few steels to see what you feel comfortable with.
You've made the leap and decided to spend alot of money on a new venture. Get as many things as possible on your side, you don't want to be fighting against a worn out unreliable instrument when the task ahead will be challenging enough as it is.
Post a message up to your fellow French steelers, they might know of a good steel somewhere, and it puts you in touch with your own steel community.
Bon chance! Dave.

Chippy Wood · Post by **Chippy Wood** » 21 Jan 2004 6:28 am

Hi Victor,
Try Ted Nesbitt at rainbowmusic in Ireland,
you'll get a good deal and advice from him.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Jan 2004 7:04 am

Bonjour Victor
Great to see un autre française sur le guitar a gliss!!
And a youngun too!!

You're not to far from Crowbear Schmitt, he will no doubt post on here when he wanders across this thread. He has been a big help to me dealing with all steel issues.

And check out his french language steelers BB http://pub84.ezboard.com/bsteelguitarfrance
A new thing but growing slowly.

Lloyd Green always played a Sho-Bud, well almost always, so that's likely the Sweetheart's sound you like.

Crowbear and I both play old Sho-Buds. If you drive down to Ariege, I bet you'd find a warm welcome at the bear cave and at least one good steel to try. Me I am due out that aways soon, with mine too, but I am by Nimes normally.

Ted Nesbit is great to talk with on the phone and knows his steel. So you could do a lot worse than his place. Ireland is a lot closer than Tennessee.

For a 1st time buyer I would avoid E-bay, but if you saw something on the PSG forum, you might have very good luck, (I did) we kinda watch each others backs around here.

Again choice of a steel also depends on what you want to play. Some can be quite content with E9 country licks for 30 years, others need a more varied harmonic approach.

Victor Denance · Post by **Victor Denance** » 21 Jan 2004 8:52 am

Thanks for all the replies guys !

From what I've heard the PS for me would be a ShoBud S10.
What is a good price for such an instrument ?

Let me know if you have one you'd be willing to sell !

Thanks !

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 21 Jan 2004 9:04 am

I think you would be disappointed with a Carter Starter. There is a WORLD of difference between the starter guitars and the "pro" models. If I had it to do again, I would have spent the extra money and gone straight to a "pro" model.

Go try some guitar if you can, even if you don't know how to play, you can feel the movements of the pedals/levers and the height/size of the guitar.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 21 Jan 2004 10:20 am

Bienvenue a ce merveilleux Forum Victor

Yep, it ain't easy findin'a PSG, or any kinda Steel in France.
Many here have given you some good advice about goin'to Ireland, Holland, Germany or England and try what they have.
a used ShoBud S10 in the US could cost you anywhere from 1000$ to 1500$ + shipping, and Customs round 500$
there is actually a very nice WBS psg from Germany over on "Buy and Sell" http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum3/HTML/019693.html
Bordeaux is'nt too far from where i live (Ariége)
you're always welcome to come and try my Bud
the link that David D gave you is the French Steel Guitar Forum that i set up to help things along here in France
Be Patient Victor. you can seek advice here all you want and get an answer.
A+

------------------
Steel what?

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 January 2004 at 10:21 AM.][This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 21 January 2004 at 10:22 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Jan 2004 10:59 am

Et voila, comme j;ai dit!!!

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 21 Jan 2004 12:30 pm

I would like to echo a few other people here. I bought a Sho-bud Maverick in '78. It lasted about 3 weeks. I was going through Winnie Winston's great book, and the Maverick had no lowers, so I couldn't do half the licks. Spend a few extra bucks. You won't regret it and there's really no depreciation.

------------------
Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Jan 2004 12:58 pm

Victor,

The "unique Fender sound" you describe is actually the "unique Sneaky Pete sound". I think that you can come close to that with a modern pedal steel and modern electronics, without resorting to playing an antique in an odd-ball tuning.

I always recommend an E9th with at least 3 knee levers to beginners. The Carter Starter is an excellent choice because it has the exact knee levers you need for 99% of the instructional material on the market today. A used pro guitar is more likely to have odd levers and to be missing the ones you need.

For example, my expensive, pro model guitar has 5 levers, but it doesn't have the "X lever" (lowering B to A#) that Jeff Newman uses in his his courses. I have my own reasons for omitting this change, but you as a student of the instrument should learn about the X lever. That's why it's there on the Carter Starter.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Fred Einspruch · Post by **Fred Einspruch** » 21 Jan 2004 2:12 pm

Just my 2 cents,

If you are interested in playing the E9th PSG
you probably want to get a guitar with 3 pedals and four knee levers. I think that a sho-bud ldg might be a good idea. They go for about $1200 or so, and one from Bobbe Seymore would be somewhat more, but also a very nice instrument. I would suggest that you buy from Bobbe or other very reputible vendor (Ricky Davis) on this forum. Either of these guys would tune up the guitar so you would probably not have a problem when you get it. I supppose that any guitar that you had delivered to France would hold its value since PSGs are so rare over there.

I would NOT advise a Fender PSG, they are sort of neat, but you would be better off with a more modern instrument. No Fenders
had any knee levers (I think).

Also one last thought, make sure that you are committed to learning the PSG, because its not an easy instrument. Prior musical training would be helpful. Its kinda fun to play, but I have been pretty frustrated in the year or so that I have been playing. Good luck,Fred

Matt Greene · Post by **Matt Greene** » 21 Jan 2004 5:29 pm

The sound you hear on Sweethearts is Lloyd Green and Jay Dee Maness. I'm by no means am trying to be pretentious, but those two could play just about any guitar and they would have that "sound". So my point is it really is not the guitar you are hearing, it's the player.

On another note. My first steel was a Carter Starter but be forewarned, I grew out of it very quickly and soon after bought another carter S-10. I still have the starter but after playing a pro steel it just collects dust. My advice is to find a good used guitar, forget about the nostalgic aspect and get something that will stay in tune and has a good feel to the pedals and very little play in the levers. Good Luck! Oh by the way. It was Sweethearts that made me buy my first steel!

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 22 Jan 2004 3:56 am

Hello Victor, welcome to the exciting world of pedal steel guitar, I would stick with a semi pro model or pro model, a semi pro model is a steel that is a single neck with 3
pedals and 4 knee levers E9th tunning emmons setup, Carter has these, and GFI, sometimes you can find some used MSA's which are good to start with, a pro model is a double 10 with 8 pedals and 4 knee levers E9th, and C6th tunning, contact Bobbe seymoure, or Bud carter. steveb carter D10, 8+5.

Victor Denance · Post by **Victor Denance** » 22 Jan 2004 4:18 am

Bobbe Seymour has 3 interesting S10 guitars for sale on his website :
- a Shobud all-pull professional 3p4k for 1470$
- a Sho-Bud Pro I 3p3k for 1495$
- a BMI 3p4k

Which among these do you think is better for a beginner ?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Jan 2004 4:25 am

b0b you point on odd copedents on pro steels is well taken.

But I think if he gets a decent steel he won't outgrow shortly, any odd things on a copedent Crowbear and I can sort out for him.

It's nice to have a 20 something taking up the PSG around here!

If he gets a Carter, the copedent is welded into place. Nothing against Carter's pro steels, but to import a starter here is not logical,
it is nearly 1/2 the cost just to ship it.
If I pay that much on top I would want to get something useful and configurable for later on, not just for a year.
A used pro S-10, SD-10 U-12 etc, can do that.

If he gets an old solid unit that can be resold if neccesary and will hold it's value after it gets here, he is better off.

Hi Victor
The Green Pro III is similar to my Pro-II
Some like the Pro-II mechanism better as stronger in some metla parts etc. But basically it is the same and it is a good steel. I am very happy with mine.

I like the orange one, but it is short an knee lever, but notice the pedals are on the left side. You could add a lever later. It has some other things that are good too as the listing states.

The yellow has 4 levers, but the pedals are oddly in the middle. I can't see where the levers are in relation to the pedals. But that's not a deal breaker.

Either steel could server purposes fine and be resellable.

The Professional there is quite close to Crowbear's.
A gorgeous sounding steel but bloody heavy too. It also has a very old type mechanism.
I would say it isn't a beginners steel.

Now the plug for Bobbe; CB got his Profesional there, it arrived properly packed in good condition and as advertised.

This is not to say the best deal for you is a Sho-Bud vs other brands. But then again you have two people who know buds around your neck of the woods too.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 January 2004 at 04:42 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 22 Jan 2004 6:07 am

Victor, look around for a LDG if SB is what you want
there are some nice Emmons,Zums,Fessendens,Mullen,Carters,GFIs out there too
Yep ! in my book, Bobbee Seymour and SGN are A+++
and Danny Hullihen, Duane Dunard, Daniel Cormier, Skip Mertz, Scotty's in St Lou, Ted Nesbitt in Ireland,Jan Visser in Holland, and the forumites over at "Buy and Sell"
Yep ! it might be a tough one to chooze
so just take it easy and gather as much advice as you can.
next is gettin'ya close to one and sittin' behind it
i'm an 1:30 from Toulouse and you get off the bus 50m from my bear cave in the center of town
there's a group from Tarbes called Appaloosa w: Lionel Duhaupas steelin'
as well as Rio Grande from Bordeaux (where all that good wine just lays around gettin' old...)who,i believe,have a steeler
LDG Victor - LDG
y'a pas d'tracas Victor, t'est a la bonne place

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 Jan 2004 11:50 am

Any major dealer of used steels (Bobbe Seymour, Scotty's, Frenchy's, AllSteelGuitar.com, etc.) should be able to change a non-standard setup on a used pedal steel to the standard E9 3&4 for a small fee compared to the overall cost. If they can't or wont, don't buy it. You can also easily get a great deal from a private owner here on the Forum. This is a specially good source for used models of professional guitars still being made by modern manufacturers (who can supply needed parts). But, again, if the guitar doesn't have a standard setup, the owner should make the change for you before purchase. Otherwise, don't buy it. The only exception might be a good deal on something that someone near you there in France has experience with and parts for.

I have bought several used guitars on the Forum. Every single one had some problem, such as levers too far to reach or too close together, missing parts, bizarre tunings and setups, etc. Because of my previous knowledge, they were all brands and models still manufactured, and I have been able to get the right parts (the exception being a 12-string
Emmons push/pull, for which there are after market parts available). With some perseverance I have been able to get them all standard. But I would not wish this problem on a beginner, especially not someone far from knowledgeable repair people.

With a little patience you should be able to locate a good used recent professional model pedal steel with a standard setup for only a little more than a new student model. I would look for things like Zum, Fessenden, Carter, GFI, Emmons all-pulls, etc. They are all still being made, and the manufacturers will supply parts and talk you through repairs you can do yourself. Minor setup changes that don't require new pedals or levers are a breeze. The older stuff, even old Sho-Buds, are more likely to be non-standard, and more likely to turn into a time consuming repair project, when you would rather be practicing.