Update on Emmons Guitar Company

[Larry Bressington]

And you the owner don't make a dime until all overheads have been met, the shop can easily be two grand a month just for the basic bills of rent/utilities/ insurance etc etc.

[Kevin Hatton]

I know someone who spent $35000 just on their shop and equipment. Do you know how many guitar you have to make break even on that?

[Tony Glassman]

Don't forget:

Wages, Worker healthcare, Worker's Comp coverage, Business/Fire Insurance, Marketing (brochures, travel/cartage fees to the trade shows (NAMM, St Louis, Dallas, Phoenix etc).

Steel Guitar Building, on a grand scale, is a tough business to "make a living". It works better as a "cottage industry", building on one's own. Prices are naturally high w/ custom fabrication because there is no economy of scale.

I've seen how tough it was when I worked for Don Christensen @ Sierra. The business was virtually subsidized by his Boeing Aircraft machining jobs.

My "hat is off" to Bruce, Del ,Gene, Frank, Fred, Chuck and all the other builders. It takes hard work, business acumen and perseverance to make a go of it producing steel guitars.

[Lane Gray]

Just like Telonics. If it weren't for aerospace, I doubt we'd have their toys

[Rich Peterson]

The builder also has to account for his own labor. How much could he/she be making at a different job. If you are a good machinist, that could be a lot.

If there weren't so many good used PSGs available, holding the prices down, a new instrument would be more costly. But it would be a profitable business.

[Henry Matthews]

Ge's, GE's Yep up of new company would be expensive but these established company's already have ttime means and equipment. I would contract out parted like key head, end plates, changer fingers and cross rods. You can pick up a samemetal lathe for around 400 bucks to do you small job.
My friend and I checked and if the pieces for mass produced,Yet Yet its not that expensive. After set up, we figured about 1800 in a d10 counting the body.I see about 1500 profit in a guitar. We were going to buy an established company but backed out because we are both too old and Istill work full time. if had sll the parts in a ben, after body is ready, i could buld one aday with great workmanship. Theres still money it it if you want to do it right and a lt of work. My customers would have a two week wait. We've done the math and it Well work.

[Per Berner]

Henry, with all due respect: If you think selling price minus the price of the materials equals profit, you have NOT done the math. Having run a succesful, constantly growing business for more than twenty years, I can assure you there are myriads of other factors involved. Your own wages, accounting, administration, sales and tech support, facilities, electricity, running a vehicle, purchasing costs, marketing, phone lines, running a website, etc., etc. Not to mention taxes.

[Ross Shafer]

I've been involved in the manufacturing of high end consumer goods for 38 years, I've worn all the hats, including owning and operating a custom bicycle manufacturing business for 21 of those years.

With the bucket of hands on knowledge I have on what it takes to make things of high quality at a profitable level I find the price of most new pedal steels to be a rippin' deal. With all due respect and with no offense meant to Henry, if it were as easy as his math seems to indicate....there'd be more people doing it!......but not without more buyers!

The biggest problem a steel maker faces is the incredibly tiny market that exists. Without a LOT more customers, building steels will never be very profitable.

Still, I know for a fact a person could easily make a million dollars building these rigs....as long as they start with 2 million!

[Doug Palmer]

Back to the original problem. In Shawn's case, the Emmons Company made a profit margin of 100%. They took all of his money and gave him nothing. Usually if a guitar costs $500 to build, it sells to a dealer for $1000. The retail price is set at $2000. The dealer can sell it at any price they decide, thus making their own profit margin. The manufacturer's profit margin is determined by the cost of production.

[Jim Palenscar]

While it is not my intention to further hijack this thread, I recently did a cost analysis of building a quality steel guitar- from real data- down to the last screw pretty much- and the results were for a D10 it was about $2400 and 160 hours of labor for each guitar- building in lots of 4- with some of the parts being jobbed out. If you then factor in overhead- w all the aforementioned details of what that entails- the builder makes less than $10/hour. It is truly a labor of love.

[Jon Light]

the builder makes less than $10/hour

Sweet!


My number one piece of advice to anyone intending to do business with anyone, anywhere, any time:

In exchange for money, deliver product.

If anyone considers this to be an optional business model, then it would seem that our understandings of things are too different to really make discussion worthwhile.

[chris ivey]

i've got to agree with jon on that!

as for les getting his steel before shawn, perhaps les still owed money once his was built. that means the emmons co. had the incentive of obtaining more cash by delivering les' steel.
since shawn's was already paid for, the company had nothing to gain by delivering his....except for a good reputation, which at this point is shot to hell.

[Jack Stoner]

Bottom line, as far as this thread is concerned. A steel was paid in full but not delivered. And sadly not the first time for the current owner.

[Alan Brookes]

That's what happens when companies go bust; all its creditors lose out. A few years ago an airline went bankrupt and customers found themselves stranded miles away from home. A plane would stop to refuel, the refueling would be refused and the airplanes confiscated by court order, leaving the passengers stranded, and the crew unpaid. What's more their return tickets became immediately worthless.

[Larry Bressington]

Crikey Al, i hope that dosen't happen to British Airways on our way back to UK, we might never be seen again...or our opinions aired on this forum!

[John Billings]

"I find the price of most new pedal steels to be a rippin' deal."

Abdo-lutely! Just check out the prices for B bender 6-string guitars!

[Alan Brookes]

Crikey Al, i hope that dosen't happen to British Airways on our way back to UK, we might never be seen again...or our opinions aired on this forum!

I think British Airways are secure. I understand that they're subsidised and part-owned by the British government. Personally, when I fly back to Birmingham each March I fly from Oakland to Seattle via Delta, from Seattle to Amsterdam and Amsterdam to Birmingham via KLM. It takes longer in the air, but I don't have to cross London then take two trains with all my luggage, and I get the opportunity to practise my Dutch on KLM and in Amsterdam.

[b0b]

Too much topic drift!

[Erv Niehaus]

Shut 'er down b0b!

[Lane Gray]

I'd say it's a tad too soon for that, just waggle a finger at drifters. Shawn HAS dropped in with updates. Hopefully things will progress quickly with the likelihood of small claims action.
I also wonder whether a US Attorney might not think a Mail Fraud action appropriate, given that the check went by mail.

[Dickie Whitley]

I'm sure Erv and the Emmons faithful who seem to think the company can do no wrong would love for this thread to close, just like they've tried to take over and shut down all the other ones that told their stories on how they were shafted by the company.

I intend to pursue this as much as possible, this needs to stop. I note in the NC Secretary of State filings that Emmons has failed to file annual reports as required by state law for 2 years now (last one in 2012), I think I'll inquire what action they intend to take.

[Alan Brookes]

Too much topic drift!

I humbly apologise.
But don't close the topic yet. Who knows what news about Emmons may arise in the coming months.

[Larry Bressington]

I apologize too bob, please feel free to delete any of my drizzle anytime.

[Richard Sinkler]

Too much topic drift!

Maybe a little. All the posts about profits, costs, delivery times have everything to do with the topic of the thread. Evidence of these issues were demonstrated when Les stated he ordered his guitar AFTER Shawn did, and received his guitar BEFORE Shawn. That directly relates to delivery time. It also shows that Emmons will do what a lot of us think is unethical to get money in hand to create cash flow. Someone mentioned Emmons making 100% profit on Shawn's guitar. Sure. By not having his guitar assembled and ready to ship (probably never having started his guitar in the first place), that was pure profit. Add in all the assumed prts sales, parts that should go on an in- process guitar, and there is more profit and adds to their cash flow.

Don't get me wrong. I think Emmons guitars are great guitars. I would love to have a Le grande 3 and a push-pull. But there is no way in the world that I would buy so much as a spring from Emmons.

[Shawn Sprouse]

Well a lot has happened since I posted last, so here is the latest. On August 28 2014 Emmons Guitar Company was served and was scheduled to appear in small claims court on September 17th at 9:40 am. I received a letter from Emmons on Sept.8th acknowledging the court date and stating that my guitar was near completion. In short I fired back my letter of response which they received on Sept. 12th. It basically stated they either had to show up with the money or the guitar or I would go ahead with the case. I drove to Graham,NC on the 16th and was at the courthouse by 8:30 on the 17th fully prepared for a battle. The judge asked why we were there today and I had a list of 12 bullet points to cover, so i preceded down the list. When I got through with my list, the judge looked at Mr. Lashley and said, Mr Lashley do you agree with his timeline? Then came the words I never thought I would hear. Ron said yes sir I do! Then the judge asked him, Do you realize that you gave this man several completion dates? Ron said, yes sir I do! Ron agreed in court that everything I said was true. Ron also said he had the guitar in the truck and that he had been working on it the night before and that he was late getting to court because he was working on it that morning too. Anyway the judge asked if I would take the guitar if it was to my specs. Which I replied I would but I had to check it out first. They granted us a continuance til noon so Ron and I could go back to the shop and check it out. The guitar played pretty good, but needed a knee lever reworked and there was another thing I don't think he thought I noticed. It was the mica was ragged on the bottom edge. It will need to be sanded. As the old saying goes a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. I weighed my options and figured I better take it and run. If not I would have to chase him for the money and the expense would be more than it would be worth. I'm now through with Emmons and want nothing else to do with them. Dave Robbins is going to check this guitar out for me and I know it will be fine once he goes through it. It is a shame that it took going to court to get something done. Now my case is documented and all I can say is buyer beware! There is another gentleman in Texas that I have been in contact with, that is having the same issue. Money paid and no guitar. He ordered his about 6 months after I did. He is being told story after story as well and from the sounds of it his guitar hasn't been started either. They are giving him a line they gave me about waiting on castings. Anyway this whole nightmare is finally over! Never again will I deal with this company. For the ones that supported me through this ordeal....THANK YOU!