Tube magic, is it the 6V6s?

[Tommy Boswell]

I used to think all the tube magic was in the preamp section, while the power amp tubes just made things louder. Until I tried swapping out the 6L6s in my Mini-Bassman with a pair of 6V6s. That takes the rated power from 40 watts down to 15, but my-oh-my what magic sounds I've got! Harmonics, plunky fat tube tones, etc. I imagine that no one component is responsible, but it's the way it all works together, how hard the pre and power tubes are being driven, etc. I'm hearing tone and texture that I used to hear on some Mark Knopfler recordings and wonder what kind of speakers is he using? But now I know it's the tubes, not the speakers, I've got the same mojo going!

[Bill Sinclair]

Depending on your amp, those wonderful tones you're hearing may be the sound of your tubes screaming in pain just before they die. 6L6s are usually run at a higher plate voltage that will kill 6V6s. A few boutique amps (like the Swart Atomic Tone)are designed to run both but I think you need to flip a switch. What amp do you have?

Edit: Oh, now I see. Mini-bassman. Don't know anything about those.

[Tommy Boswell]

Made by Frenzel, owner's manual says that the new JJ 6V6's are OK to use. Lots of flexibility designed into that amp.

[Tim Marcus]

6V6s sound great! Nice sweet midrange and honey like tone.

In my opinion, the magic of a tube amp is the output power supply - and this is especially true for a "clean" amp where you don't have a preamp distortion circuit. A tube amp sounds magical as a singular unit and the power tubes certainly effect the tone.

I'm not a fan of JJ tubes - had too many failures. But if they are working for you that's great! Imagine how good RCA 6V6 sound

[Dave Mudgett]

I think that, for most of the great tube amps I've used, the magic is in the output section. I think it's a combination of the power supply and the current-saturation properties of the output tubes, which are quite different from the types of nonlinearity exhibited by a typical preamp section. They're all important, but there's something about pressing a properly-designed tube power amp just over the line that I have never really heard or felt any other way. In fact, for me, it's probably more about the way it 'feels' while I'm playing that hooks me.

I also think that, when properly designd, 6V6 power tubes are generally a bit 'sweeter' - I'd say a bit warmer and less 'in-your-face' - sounding than 6L6 power tubes. Part of it is the kink in the typical 6L6 frequency response, ergo the KT (Kinkless Tetrode) series of tubes like the KT-66 and KT-88, which were designed to ameliorate this. Of course, that 6L6 kink is part of what makes 6L6 amps cut through a mix so well. Especially in a loud, live situation, a 6L6 is hard to beat. I guess this is why most of us into this kind of thing have to have both - or maybe, that's just how I rationalize it.

[Tim Marcus]

And don't forget the 5881 - it's got power like a 6L but is sweet like a 6V

My fav output tube!

[mike nolan]

I have been curious about trying one of the 4X6V6 amps that I have seen as a PSG amp. Have you heard any of these..... Like the Tone King Metropolitan for instance.

[Brad Sarno]

As a guitarist, I totally agree that a tube amp is the magic every time. But for pedal steel, it's really quite a different animal as we go for super-clean and we control the dynamic range with our foot. While I LOVE using an All-tube amp rig, I'd argue that for steel it's the tube preamp that's most critical as that's where all the voicing and nuance and critical balancing between low wound strings and high unwound strings takes place. It's where the steel guitar comes to life. And in practice, the benefits of solid state power amps, size, weight, low-distortion, low-maintenance, etc. often prove to be the workingman's solution, not unlike the way it is for bass amplification.

If we think of the past many years of Mike Johnson or Paul Franklin's recorded tone, that's been a tube preamp into a solid state power amp. Or for John Hughey's classic 70's tone and one he swore was his favorite back then it was an Evans Hybrid with a tube preamp and solid state power stage. In more recent years Buddy Emmons along with hundreds of other pro's choose a tube preamp into solid state power for their solution.

So while the all-tube rig really is hard to beat tone-wise, for the working steel player it really seems like the critical element is the preamp tubes or a tube buffer up front and all that tonal magic that comes with that. Then depending on the power and weight requirements and the degree of drive required, the power stage is more optional in comparison. But hey, I'm biased. This observation and philosophy is at the heart of why I do what I do in my gear offerings. A steel guitar tone can turn into harsh, sterile garbage or glistening, sweet beauty depending on the nature of these early preamp stages.

But more on topic, 6V6's are the most beautiful sounding power tubes I know.

Brad

[Tim Marcus]

agreed - I would much rather hear a tube preamp into a SS power amp than a solid state preamp into a tube power amp

[Matt Bush]

6V6 tubes are my favorite for guitar. There's just something magical about the way they break up. I've got a 62 5F1 Champ with an old RCA 6V6 in it, and plugging my strat or tele straight into it and running the volume up to 3 or 4 o'clock sounds absolutely incredible.

[Donny Hinson]

I used to think all the tube magic was in the preamp section, while the power amp tubes just made things louder. Until I tried swapping out the 6L6s in my Mini-Bassman with a pair of 6V6s. That takes the rated power from 40 watts down to 15, but my-oh-my what magic sounds I've got! Harmonics, plunky fat tube tones, etc.

Well, if you're keeping the volume down, they might be doing 15 watts. But if they're being pushed with lots of drive, and you're operating them at 6L6GC voltages, they'll put out over 20 watts...with plenty of nice harmonic distortion (just not for very long). They'll likely develop a short in the no-too-distant future, and you'll be lucky if that doesn't take out the output transformer.

[Tommy Boswell]

Donny, I'm not a gigging musician. The fun I'm having with these 6V6s is at home, just me and the radio. For the one loud gig I played recently, I put the 6L6s back in there, and mic'd the amp. Also, I've got a low gain 12AU7 in the V1 position, and I guess that means I'm not driving the power section all that hard. But I'm no technician, I just enjoy trying different things.

[Rich Santucci]

JJ 6V6's will handle about the same plate voltages of a 6L6. Do not however attempt to put NOS 6V6's in there as they will quickly become toast. My concern would be the different primary impedence of the output transformer. But I guess it's close enough to
sound good.

[Tommy Boswell]

From the Mini Bassman owner's manual: "You can also use JJ 6V6's or similar new manufacture tubes that will take 400 volts on the plates". I wouldn't try anything else, I'm not that smart.

[Tim Marcus]

Fender pushed the voltages on 6V6 and I do it too. The Deluxe Reverb has over 400 volts on the plates. My 20W has over 400 and runs 6V6 all day long including RCA. There's more than just voltages to worry about - if the amp is designed to run 6V6 it should be fine.

[Dave Mudgett]

A blackface or silverface Deluxe Reverb puts about 420-430 volts DC on the plates of 2 6V6's. So if the criterion is that a tube must handle >400VDC on the plates, then most good NOS 6V6's should handle it. I have used any of the usual-suspect NOS 6V6 tubes in my Deluxes - RCAs of whatever vintage, GEs (my favorites in a Deluxe), Sylvania, Mazda, whatever.

That said, 400+ volts on a 6V6 is pretty rough on them. The design center is typically around 350 volts, and a lot more than that does wear them down. So in general, I wouldn't use 6V6's in an amp designed for 6L6's without a good reason.

Regardless of what anybody says, I will never again use modern-production 6V6's in an amp like a vintage Deluxe Reverb that takes 400+ VDC on the plates. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, not good, in my experience. People keep on suggesting I should check out the 'new kool-aid', and every time, I regret it. Sometimes it just sounds wrong to me, sometimes worse. Let's just say that I've not had a good, carefully tested NOS 6V6 blow up in a Deluxe Reverb; I cannot say the same of modern versions.

On the tube-preamp/solid-state-power-amp vs solid-state-preamp/tube-power-amp thing - both can sound great if executed well. My main rig is a Sarno Freeloader (solid-state) into a passive volume pedal into something like a tweed Bassman or (for lower-volume situations) Deluxe or Vibrolux Reverb, but I also get excellent results with a Revelation preamp (tube) into the VP into a real clean solid-state amp - I just picked up a Furlong cab, it works real well like this. I think the biggest advantage for me is that the tube amps involve zero compromise for guitar, and I almost always do double-duty. I also stand by my earlier comment that, for me, there is some big-time magic when I push a tube power amp section just over the line that I've never quite been able to duplicate with a solid-state power amp. I'll tell you this - the people I play with definitely prefer when I bring the tube amps. Maybe it's just a 'cachet' thing, but I don't think so.

[Jon Light]

I have been curious about trying one of the 4X6V6 amps that I have seen as a PSG amp. Have you heard any of these..... Like the Tone King Metropolitan for instance.

Hey Mike. Here we go again. I've got a Tone King Comet 40B--a 2 X 12, 4 X 6V6 amp.
At the time I got it my needs (or perception of needs) were in transition and I never really got to know it as a steel amp.
The couple of times I gigged it I was still early in my own learning curve of good tone on steel and did not understand the amp well enough to appreciate it at gigs and went back to my Dual Showman but I'd love to open it up wide now and reassess it.
I believe it would sound pretty great. It sure does at home.

It has a 'guitar' channel--described as 'tweed'-- and a blackface channel. And a half power switch. It is designed with two discrete 2 X 6V6 output sections with their own x-formers.

[mike nolan]

Jon,
Anytime you want to haul it over to my studio for a high Db road test, let me know.

As for the offshore current 6V6 production tubes... I, like others here, have regarded them with some scorn. I almost got into a fist fight with a young lady at a Brooklyn gig 'cause I insinuated that her reissue Tung Sols weren't real Tung Sols (I'm pretty sure that I could have taken her in a fair fight.)

That said, and with a personal track record of catastrophic failures for EH, Sovtek, etc tubes, I still decided to try some of the JJ 6V6s tubes in a SFDR to see if I could get a bit more clean out of it. The JJs, careful biasing, and a TSNEO-12 have yielded pretty good results. Quite a few gigs under the belt, and no issues.

[Tim Marcus]

I been using and abusing Ruby 6V6-STR for years no problems. Those suckers sound great and take 450V all day long.

[Larry Behm]

Brad Sarno thanks for the thoughts about Tube preamp and SS power amp. I just did that very thing, there is a little magic in the tube, I am beginning to "get" what the "tube" guys hearing.

I have a preamp that allows me to get a tube output and or a SS output. Together with my PV PX300 with a single BW 1501-4 it should cut the mustard, or break wind, which ever comes first.

[Rich Santucci]

There is also some school of thought that with modern production tubes you need to up the screen resistors. From 470ohm to 1K for 6V6 and 6L6 and from 1K to 2K for EL34's. Any thoughts on that Tim or Dave?

[Dave Mudgett]

For me, the value is of the screen grid resistor is less important than the power rating. To me, the main issue is making sure that if a tube is starting to go south, the SGR blows (and effectively takes the tube out of the circuit) before the bad tube takes a transformer with it. Like many, I think of it as a sort of 'fuse' when a tube blows. I would much rather replace a cheap SGR than a transformer, especially on a vintage amp. I've seen guys put high-power screen grid resistors on, let's say, a Deluxe Reverb, and was a disaster if a tube blew which, I'm sorry to say, I've seen too many cases of. There are lots of discussions on this, such as this - http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html?d ... ber=740085. But I would never put a 5W screen grid resistor in an old Deluxe Reverb. But like one of those guys said - I would never put anything but a carefully tested old 6V6 in an old Deluxe Reverb. Just call me "Mr. Skeptical".

There are obviously many opinions about modern tubes of all stripes, including JJs. They're obviously better than those horrible Sovtek 6V6's that were so disastrous (IMHO). But to me, the JJs sound more like 6L6's than 6V6's. That isn't such a horrible thing, but not when I want a 6V6 sound.

For a volume manufacturer, the obvious solution is to design around the tubes that are available, and NOS 6V6/6L6/EL34/EL84/6550 and so on are not available in volume, period. But if I wanted a softer-sounding 6V6-style amp with modern tubes, I would not push the voltages so much. YMMV.

[Bill Hatcher]

all those crazy loud non distorting fender twin reverbs laying around.....i always wanted to sub 4 6V6 power tubes in one and bias it correctly and maybe even drop the plate voltage some. install a 10-25 watt 100 ohm power resistor between the OT centertap and first filter cap(s) this would lower the plate voltage to around 390 volts. bet it would sound nice.

werent the jim kelly amps running four 6V6 tubes in the output??

[Jim Newberry]

Ignoring all the "it isn't a real Mullard" and "it's just a relabled Sovtek" comments for now... It looks like New Sensor is at least trying:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/mull ... acuum-tube
I think they're pretty new and haven't heard any real-world experiences yet, but they seem to be targeting the high-B+ environment.

Also, Tim, did you mean the TAD 6V6-STR or does Ruby do supply such a thing, too?

[Tom Gorr]

I preferred the tone of a new production tungsol 6v6 in a bassman style circuit, and a JJ 6v6 in a deluxe style circuit for six string.

Currently using a winged c 6L6 in a deluxe circuit for my steel guitars...deep and clean on the bottom and sweet and detailed on the top...never really liked 6L6's for electric guitar tones, but really happy with them for steel, they just have a huge sonic footprint and great dynamic range.