Problem with fasteners on Carter undercarriage...

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Jul 2014 4:50 pm

The bellcranks are fastened to the square cross shafts with what looks to me to be T 15 head machine screws.. Problem is, I have 3 different T 15 bits, and they are all too big!... A T10 will go in but strips out quickly... Also, these fasteners are easily the TIGHTEST I have ever seen on a pedal steel.. wayyy overkill.. In any case I am all of a sudden at a loss. I can't move most of the damn bellcranks at all...
I was a mechanic all my life, and was around when Torx fasteners were introduced.. As far as I am aware, there is nothing between a T 10 and T 15, unless something came along after I retired that I am not aware of.. WHAT is used to take these Torx fasteners off the bellcrans???.. Maybe I need a brand new sharp T 15 driver??.. The ones I have look perfect, and I never had a problem??.. Any help from Carter owners here??... This steel is kicking my ass all of a sudden... bob

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 24 Jul 2014 6:09 pm

Hi Bob, they are T10 on mine. Hopefully you stripped the driver and not the screw! I do remember that some of those buggers were on pretty tight. I ended up getting a Craftsman T10 driver at Sears, one with a regular screwdriver handle. I tried one of their little "precision" types first but couldn't get enough torque on it. Good luck - I hope you post some pix of your new rig when you're all done with it.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 24 Jul 2014 6:23 pm

Guess thats why the T 15 was big, although one of the T 15 bits did get several of them loose..... However the T 10 is way too small, and instantly strips.. Its brand new too.. Never used... I will try a different brand driver, go buy another new one.... This is getting annoying... bob

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 Jul 2014 7:32 pm

T10 here too. That is one of the big mistakes I think Carter made. The other being the brass dog bones. They tighten these screws way to tight at the factory. I have stripped several, trying to loosen them up. I've stripped both the screw head, and some of the torx drivers (Craftsman)I have purchased. I actually have some bellcranks that I can't move and just sit there with other rods going through them.

Honestly, I love my Carter, but had I known about this problem, and the dog bones, I probably would have bought something else.

James Jacoby · Post by **James Jacoby** » 24 Jul 2014 11:36 pm

[quote=Bruce Derr- I ended up getting a Craftsman T10 driver at Sears, one with a regular screwdriver handle.-----Mine is a Great Neck Tx10 with a regular screwdriver handle. I've never had any trouble getting mine loose while using it. Are you sure a previous owner didn't abuse the screw heads, trying to get them off, using an in-appropriate tool? ( Allen wrench, phillips, etc.) If they're hopelessly hogged out, you might try converting them to slot screws, with a Dremmel tool, and cutting disc. -Jake-

James Jacoby · Post by **James Jacoby** » 25 Jul 2014 12:07 am

If you decide to go with a Dremmel, and there isn't enough room among the rods, and bellcranks,for the motor, Dremmel makes an accessory flexible shaft, that should get the job done. I know that you probably already know this, but please, always use safety glasses, when using a dremmel. One time I was using one of those little wire brushes, and one of the bristles broke off, and stuck about 1/8" into the end of my nose. I had glasses on, but it made me think, what if it had been my eye! Good luck on your project, Bob. -Jake-

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 25 Jul 2014 1:51 am

I think Carter had a thing about over tightening. During the brief time I owned one, I encountered the same problem with at least one of the bellcranks. Even worse, though, were the tiny set screws that go through the back rail and act as pedal stops. They were put in with blue Loctite at the factory (per Al Briscoe) and wouldn't budge at all for me--and I tried everything short of drilling them out. When I asked him why this had been done, Al said they were set with the correct setting for the original copedent at the factory. I always found this odd: the whole idea of a professional model changer is to allow the steel player to change the copedant to his or her liking, right?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 25 Jul 2014 8:16 am

I did find that if you apply a lot of downward pressure, and don't try to turn the torx driver too fast, you have maybe a 75% chance of it loosening. What really gets me is, Carter includes an "L" shapes torx wrench, similar to an allen wrench that is a T10 size. What a joke. I think it stripped just at the mere thought of being used.

The pedal stops (set screws) on my guitar had a dimple (peen) where the set screws went through the rail. No Loctite. That put pressure on the screw so it wouldn't turn by itself. I bought a pedal kit to install a "zero" pedal. Since I couldn't get in to peen the screw in, I used blue loctite. Now the set screw is stripped from trying to adjust it with an allen wrench. I don't recommend Loctite for those adjusting screws.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Jul 2014 8:35 am

Maybe they used Lok-Tight?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 25 Jul 2014 8:47 am

No sign of Loctite on those screws. I once complained to John Fabian about them. He said they don't do anything to make them un-removable. He just sent me 6 bellcranks for free. He didn't say if he used a powered screwdriver to put them in. I would doubt it though. They probably had Arnold Schwarzenegger on hand to tighten them.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 Jul 2014 8:58 am

I had a couple of the pedal stop screws that were a bit loose. I had some tuning issues with a couple of pedals and John & I narrowed it down to this and we decided that loctite would be the best solution (boring & tapping for a larger sized screw was not an option for me). I'm wondering if this maybe was a wider problem and loctite maybe was their best factory solution for it (although not a good solution at all, abandoning one of the virtues of a Carter--its maximum adjustability).

The several engineering issues that are now 'complaints' with Carters----dog bones, levers slipping (and assemblages breaking), stop screws---- may tell a story that we may never fully learn about John, Bud, innovations and problem solving.
Was Magnum, besides being a new, more mass market business model, also a way for John to depart from some engineering choices that just didn't seem worth the trouble to try to refine?

We'll probably never learn who was pulling in which direction and how these things got decided.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 25 Jul 2014 9:28 am

My pedal adjustment screws are still tight after 15 years. But then, I never have a reason to adjust them. Everytime I do preventive maintenance on mine, I always put the allen wrench in each stop screw hole, and very lightly turn to see if they are loose.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jul 2014 9:41 am

Loctite is overkill for TINY screws that may need to be adjusted more than once.. A tiny bit of plain old silicone adhesive will keep the threads from ever slipping, but wil break loose with a screwdriver when needed to.. This Carter is simply ridiculous.. Bought a brand new T10 driver and most of them are still too tight to remove, and the fit is sloppy at best, so if I put a lot of pressure those torx head will strip instantly.. This is turning into a massive project.. 5 pedals and 5 knee levers all on the right half of the guitar, and NOTHING on the left... Right at this point I wish I would have passed on it.. I am hoping in week after I grind all these frozen bolts off I will feel differently... bob

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 25 Jul 2014 10:02 am

Bob, here is what I would do; apply something like Liquid Wrench to the threads, just use a toothpick or something like that, to get it into the right spot. Then get something like a short length of 1/4" plain rod, maybe 4-5 inches long. Put one end of the rod right on the head of the screw, then tap gently, use a small hammer or similar. Tap at least 20 times. The screw will come out. I spent years breaking stuck threads, almost always, the application of some hammering will loosen them. Good luck.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » 25 Jul 2014 10:12 am

Soak threads with Liquid Wrench for a few days.
Grind down the point of a T10 bit for a better fit.
Use an impact driver with light hammer taps.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jul 2014 10:31 am

Jerry Jones wrote:Soak threads with Liquid Wrench for a few days.
Grind down the point of a T10 bit for a better fit.
Use an impact driver with light hammer taps.

Jerry, that impact driver would round those tiny torx out instantly, believe me.. I don't know where John and Bud sourced these bolts, but the fit with a standard T 10 is awful, even brand new ones.... The fit was so bad, I originally thought they were T 15.. Matter of fact I DID loosen several with a T 15, and when I looked, I could see no evidence they were ever tampered with...

I was an auto technician for decades.. I was the guy with all the patches down his arm saying " master this" and "expert that", so I am well aware of how to get stuck bolts loose, even very small ones.. The best way would be to remove the entire cross shaft, and apply a tiny bit of heat to the threaded hole at the bottom of the bellcranks.. My annoyance is that I should not HAVE to... I just got the cross shafts all in, and the levers fastened close to where the Carter factory usually put its levers... I'll wade though this... bob

Keith Currie · Post by **Keith Currie** » 25 Jul 2014 11:05 am

If they did use blue lok tight on them heating them just a little would release it.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 25 Jul 2014 11:08 am

I tried heat with no success.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jul 2014 11:15 am

Ok guys, I found the fix... Here's what I did on the screws that were so tight I felt were about to strip[about half of them]... I got a brand new driver to insure the best fit.. Then, I simply lit a match, held it against the thread of the screw between the upper and lower holes in the bellcrank.. I waited until the match was almost right to the end and burning the crap out of my thumb and forefinger, then I inserted the driver, and gave a quick twist to break it free, rather than steady pressure.. Heating that bolt was the key.. The aluminum will expand faster then the steel, and it was just enough to break those screws free.. Even with the heat, they were the tightest fasteners I had ever seen on any steel guitar anywhere, and I have seen a lot of them...

I have abandoned the idea of making the 3/16 brass barrels myself.. I made one from brass rod, and it looked like crap... Too hard to drill straight clean holes in a round rod that small free hand... I will try heating the ends of 3/32 rods red hot and bending them over a small nail, and just using the dog bones I have.. I really don't feel like spending close to $100 for a dozen barrels and shipping from canada... I will let everyone know how it goes.. I suppose the Carter design is fairly easy to work on and straightforward, IF you can get it apart initially, and if you have the right parts on hand.. Mixing and matching with parts from other brands doesn't seem to work out real well with a Carter... bob

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 25 Jul 2014 12:45 pm

I make brass collars by putting some rod in the chuck of the drill press and the drill bit in the vice. Then I slice it up. It can be done with a hand power drill if you make a guide. Mine was a piece of wood with a hole right through made with the drill, and then drilled out halfway through to the diameter of the rod. Perhaps you can figure how that would work - I'm away from my scanner so I can't post a pic

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jul 2014 1:08 pm

Ian Rae wrote:I make brass collars by putting some rod in the chuck of the drill press and the drill bit in the vice. Then I slice it up. It can be done with a hand power drill if you make a guide. Mine was a piece of wood with a hole right through made with the drill, and then drilled out halfway through to the diameter of the rod. Perhaps you can figure how that would work - I'm away from my scanner so I can't post a pic

No drill press, and a crappy wobbly vise, and my patience has grown thin!... I have made a couple rods from mild steel, and can get the bends really nice with a bit of heat from a propane torch.. I will try it with stainless rods as well and see what happens. They probably won't bend as nicely... I realize most guys are adamant about using stainless rods, but personally I feel the are not needed.. if you wipe them once upon installation with a rag with a tiny bit of machine oil, they will never rust.. Yes they aren't as shiny, but who's looking under the apron.. Mild steel is a lot easier to work with... bob

Keith Currie · Post by **Keith Currie** » 25 Jul 2014 1:18 pm

If heat dont release it then it isnt lok tight that is holding it, maybe just over tighten.

John Swain · Post by **John Swain** » 25 Jul 2014 1:59 pm

I have three immovable bellcranks but luckily could get new on where I needed them. Those little capscrews are terrible. I took a new Torx driver and ground the tip ( which is slightly tapered) on my bench grinder. I bend the stainless welding rods in my vise hitting with a hammer. After the 90 degree bend put another rod in the bend and hammer the rest. Then I cut it with hacksaw and thread the 4/40. Hope that helps JS

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 25 Jul 2014 2:22 pm

Good luck guys...old MSA's are still looking pretty good from my viewpoint...but yes, there are some pretty awesome Carter's out there that can incite the worst in our domestic challenges.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Jul 2014 4:08 pm

Tom Gorr wrote:Good luck guys...old MSA's are still looking pretty good from my viewpoint...but yes, there are some pretty awesome Carter's out there that can incite the worst in our domestic challenges.

MSA steels are pleasure to work on...
The Carter will be fine now that those screws have been broken loose.. I also stripped out one of the tiny allen head pedal stop screws, that are set with LOCTITE!!.. Luckily, it was in one of the pedal "stop holes" that I will not be using, and I merely have to buy one at the hardware store and put it in the new location on the left side of the guitar..
This has been weird.. Piles of short pull rods.. Never have I seen a steel with 10 changes[5 pedals 5 knees] all on the right half of the steel, with nothing at all on the left half.. i sat down to it, tried like hell to play a chord or two, and hit a pedal or knee, and just got back up, and started taking it apart... It will be fine before too much longer... Thanks to ALL for the advise and encouragement.. bob