Too many pedals and knee levers?

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 3 Jan 2004 2:08 am

Been thinking about this thread.
The ideal stringed instrument would have 88 strings (like a piano). Since that is cumbersome, you start cutting the number down.
The steel's tunings evolved because people were looking for a way of getting certain chords in an open position. But even with those (E9, C6, A13, etc.) there are limitations-- and when the idea of pedals became feasible, the next question was what do you want to change to get what?
I started on a 6 string lap steel that I had tuned like a Dobro in G. I realized that to get some chords, I needed to sland the bar, and even then, I couldn't get three note chords. So I started thinking about pedals. And what I came up with was almost exactly what I now have-- raise the 3rd a half, raise the 5th a whole (and that gives you a IV chord), lower the 3rd a half (I minor), lower the 1st a half (and with the 3rd up a half, gives a V7), etc. Best way to figure it out it to start with the open and figure out what you need.
I'm still amazed at Red Rhodes who had a diatonic tuning (as did Al Petty). It's all a querstion of what you hear in your head and how top get the instrument to do it!

JW

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Jan 2004 5:34 am

Lots of interesting input here.
I went from 8+6 to 8+8 because I wanted speed in finding certain changes...
the music demanded it.

Yes there were ways to play over the same changes with no pedals...
but it just wasn't coming out like I wanted it to...
and likely never would.
No matter how much I searched or practiced.

There are specific physical limtations that must be considered.
Time, weight, distance, etc.

So it became clear an addition or two was needed.
I now feel I was right in this C6 addition.
The speed and access is greatly improved.
But this was driven by the musical need,
and not just to add parts to be impressive.

There are some changes I am debating, but that is just gravy on top.
A basic, for me, functional system has been found for my needs.

I do like the suggestion of playing it like a lapsteel to find ways to get around better.
I do that, and also do that with one or two pedals/levers activated to see how things can be found as if it were tuned that way.

I have seen Buddy Cage and I am sure he misses the other levers and pedals,
because he was using them in a practical way.
I also am sure he plays great with a simpler set up.
But what musical choices is he leaving out?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 January 2004 at 06:04 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 3 Jan 2004 6:01 am

A&B pedals are used alot because they form the most commonly used scale and chords in Country music. The major scale and the 1 and 4 major. The 6 minor and the suspended 4th chord. The other pedals generally provide the additional notes of the chromatic scale. If we played mostly Jazz progressions on the E9th the A & B would not play as the dominant pedals in the tuning.

The question then becomes which notes/pedals of the chromatic scale can you live without. The answer for most is none.

I have 9 and 9 on all of my D10's. I have a single neck C6th pedabro that has 9 and 7.

Paul

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 Jan 2004 6:08 am

The common AB and "E" levers is what keeps many of us in the common ground territory..we can now play all the same songs in the safe mode.

It's those other "un-common" changes that are discovered and used with such magical taste that everyone chases..and I suppose..keeps us thinking..and growing..

Thanks Winnie and Paul for your insight...

Fortunately there are no rules or limits on creativity..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 03 January 2004 at 06:09 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Jan 2004 6:09 am

Paul thanks for the input.
My sentiments exactly... but more concise than mine LOL.
I love the Pedalbro tune on The Players.
Such a killer lick.
I had been thinking of asking you what your pedalbro copedent is.
Is it the same as you forum posted C6 copedent?

Fred Amendola · Post by **Fred Amendola** » 3 Jan 2004 6:10 am

Hey Tommy,
This is a great thread, and a subject we've discussed jokingly quite a bit together, at Wally's.
Your point is well made and I might add that the 2nd string lower, at least to a D, is one that I always felt was pretty important especially for the faster playing.
The rest of it, I think is placement. The less used changes, if we insist on keeping them, need to be where they do not interfere with the basic 2 or 3 knees that are used for most of your playing. E.g. I have my B's lowering on an additional front LKL, which is out of the way, but accessible. Same is true for an up-lever.
Just my two cents. [BTW, I just took a lever off of my guitar, do you need a spare?]

Fred

Ward Wilsey · Post by **Ward Wilsey** » 3 Jan 2004 9:38 am

Just some input from a beginner here. When I first started playing, I was trying to use and learn licks using every single pedal on my steel. After a short time, I found that I really wasn't learning anything and was getting really confused. I then decided to form an approach to learning based on one pedal (well A&B at first, but you know what I mean) at a time. I've spent the last couple of months concentrating on playing using only my A&B pedals and have noticed a marked improvement. By focusing on these pedals only, the steel is starting to make sense, and music is starting to slowly but surely come out. I'm going to move on to the raise the E's lever soon, then the lower the E's lever eventually. The point is that to many changes at first is counter productive and can inhibit progress. However, once you become comfortable and are able to add changes, the more the merrier. Ward

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 3 Jan 2004 10:28 am

Though Jimmie Crawford could smoke most players with a couple of pedals, I can't imagine him without his 10x10 setup. And I can assure you there is pretty equal wear on all of them (his E9 has 6 pedals and 7 knees working). His setup is the result of years of trial and error, and he still would like to have a couple more of the newer changes in addition. We have often spoke of his desire to have a D10 E9/E9--one neck with his standard setup, and one with a setup that leans more towards Paul's.

Having been influenced heavily by the above mentioned (including having him build a 10x10 Emmons for me in '79), I would feel rather limited without my setup. There is seldom a session or gig that I don't use everything on my rig (Fessenden guitars with 4 and 8 on the E9's). Though I don't get as much as Jimmie, it is still indispensible for me. I have modified my setup to include some of the more current changes, and absolutely love it.

What ever works for you, that is the right setup...[This message was edited by John Macy on 03 January 2004 at 10:29 AM.][This message was edited by John Macy on 03 January 2004 at 10:31 AM.]

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 3 Jan 2004 11:36 pm

As a newbie, I started out on an S-10 with 3+4. I played it for 7-8 months, and moved to a D-10 with 8+4. Although I have a few extra goodies, my main focus is still what I did on my first guitar. The extras are there when I grow into them. I have started on the C6th neck a couple months ago and love it!! But, I work my E9th first, and then do a little on C6th if I have time and mental energy left. I find the C6th makes a beautiful "change of pace" for me. When I out grow this set up(not if, but when), I will look for a bigger setup to tackle. If a "deal" with a bigger setup comes along before I'm that good, I'll just use what I know and learn the rest of the setup later as I grow. The extras will politely wait for me. They become a distraction only if you let them---so stay focused!! I have got time, and this is what I now love to do. I'll get there sooner or later, and will up-grade when I need more goodies. After all, It's Faster horses, Older whiskey, Younger wo---awww, you know what I mean!!

Ryan Giese · Post by **Ryan Giese** » 4 Jan 2004 8:24 pm

If you use it 80 or 90% of the time, what are you going to do the other 10 or 20% of the time when you need to use the C pedal or one of the knee levers you had removed? They do the same thing. All though they may not be used as much, they are just as useful when needed.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 4 Jan 2004 10:04 pm

Todays top 40 music doesn't require all those knee levers and pedals. Its steel guitar 101. If you threw in all those extra pedals and knee levers you'd get fired for over playing. If you are playing steel instrumentals, then maybe yes. Tom Brumley sounded fabulous with 3+2. Lloyd is more proof. I just don't see the need playing top 40 music. Most of the players I see with extra hardware never use it. Some don't even know how. I'm reminded of when everyone thought Brumley's move on "Together Again" was on a knee lever. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 04 January 2004 at 10:07 PM.]

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 4 Jan 2004 10:18 pm

quote:

"Todays top 40 music doesn't require all those knee levers and pedals. Its steel guitar 101. If you threw in all those extra pedals and knee levers you'd get fired for over playing."

Bulls**t. I make a great living everyday in the studio as a producer, engineer, and session steel player. I understand overplaying as well as anybody. On my guitar I have the hardware, know how to use it, USE it, and I have yet to get fired.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 4 Jan 2004 10:39 pm

Paul,
Which pedals did you use on the steel break for "I Love This Bar?" That's not an AB lick is it?

Joe

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Jan 2004 9:09 am

I hate to break the news to you, Kevin, but neither Tom Brumley nor Lloyd Green are playing most of the sessions in Nashville today. The guy who is uses 9x7 and uses many different changes (like lowering G# to E for example).

I disagree with your premise that the pop-style country is simpler music than that of the 60's or 70's (if that is indeed what you were getting at). It's much more than simple major/minor stuff -- more suspensions and polychords -- more like pop music of the last few decades, to my ears anyway.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 January 2004 at 09:11 AM.]

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 5 Jan 2004 11:17 am

It's also important to note that Tom Brumley no longer plays a guitar with 3x2. If he had wanted to stay with it, I imagine he could have... he has either 4 or 5 pedals, and I believe 7 KLs.

I don't know if it's too many; either you find one you want and put it on, or you hear of one being used, and figure out where to slide it in... learning on a standard set up was interesting because I would start fitting the changes into it as I got accustomed to them.

I've also noticed that there are certain things one plays along to that don't need much A&B pushing... the more outside of the canon you get, the more weird and hairy the chords get, and the more you need to work other changes to get to the sounds you need.

John Davis · Post by **John Davis** » 5 Jan 2004 12:11 pm

I don`t understand why so many levers are needed, I have never had more than four, but if they are all doing more than one job, is that not the equivalent of eight??

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 6 Jan 2004 9:18 am

Larry , I hate to break the news to YOU, but at least fifty percent of the top fourty studio hits are done by Dan Dugmore on his Sho-Bud Pro-II with 3+4.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 6 Jan 2004 9:40 am

Where did you get your data, Kevin?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 6 Jan 2004 1:02 pm

Kevin and Larry....Pardon me for jumping in the middle of this. I hope to prevent a shouting match over either my credits or Dans. Once I see ALL CAPS over something pertaining to me, I get nervous.

This is documented and is as accurate an indicator as I know of, for this kind of data.

Music Row magazine tabulates all the hit CD's out of Nashville by calling producers and checking what they read on album credits against the producers memory. Once this is done, they varify everything from that point with the union contracts to make sure everyone is credited correctly for their work on a hit project.(They follow the money trail) It is a tedious project that is done every year by them.

After they get the numbers an award goes to the musician on each instrument for playing on the most hit CD's within a year. They list players, per instrument, with their totals for the year. You have to play on at least two hit CD's to get listed in the final award issue of the magazine.

Players that generally take this award acquire 20 credits. The highest I have ever seen in one year was in the guitar category, Brent Mason got 23. The most I ever accumulated in a year was 21. My score has consistantly stayed around 18 to 20 over the last ten or so years. Dan and Bouton consistantly range in the 8 to 10 range in the pedal steel category with Garrish one or two credits behind. Dan and Bruce have tied alot, if my memory serves me correctly.

(AGAIN, this is not my information. This comes from the information listed each year in the Music Row magazine)

Kevin.....Dan also plays acoustic and electric rhythm guitar on sessions. He is a multi-instrumentalist and a durn good one at that. Wherever you heard this, they must be adding his guitar credits to his steel credits to get those kind of numbers....I can see where you would have assumed all of his recording credits are for pedal steel.

As for the pedal thing, to each his own....Players can always debate with an example of why to study music or not, play Jazz or not, play fast or not, play slow or not, to have alot of pedals or not. I just hope our session work does not become the focus of this debate...Who works what proves nothing here.

I believe this has been a great thread, so far

...Paul [This message was edited by Franklin on 07 January 2004 at 06:55 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 08 January 2004 at 11:07 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 6 Jan 2004 2:17 pm

Yes Paul, I did add the other instruments in and your numbers are correct. I just wanted to point out that there are people recording hits in Nashville who don't have seven knee levers on their guitar. Thanks for those stats by the way. They are interesting.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 06 January 2004 at 02:20 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 06 January 2004 at 02:22 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 6 Jan 2004 2:32 pm

"Hits" are indicitive of sales, not musical quality. Otherwise, Madonna would be one of the world's greatest musicians!

The number of pedals and levers are not indicitive of musical quality either- it's the music, not the axe, it's the mind of the player, not the copedant.

Paul Franklin could play a one stringed instrument with no pedals, no levers, and one finger and play good music.

=========

John McGann, push/pull D-18, 24 + 16, and steroids for cartage. Been playing steel for 6 months and sound it.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 Jan 2004 3:26 pm

Here, here, to Pauls comments and stats too.

One thing I am finding is different gigs really do use very different pedals/levers and the amount you go to them.

Jazz manouche I am all over LKL and LKV so's my leg is tired and walk strange,
P6 and a bit of P7 & P8.
And BE's P5+ P7 thing for Caravan.
Now I want a steel copedent for this style LOL.

Blues has a lot of RKR alternating with LKL + LKV and more P5 and tons of P6.

Country has a completely different PnL dynamic.

If you play many different musics you need many different PnL combinations. It seems impossible to have only one steel ideal for all ; including universals.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 6 Jan 2004 5:32 pm

John, this is not about quality of music, but the actual need for multiple knee kevers. If you play in a top fourty country/rock band like I do, I don't find the need for more than four knee levers. Quality of music has nothing to do with it. Its subjective. Some people think country music is ignorant and simplistic. I don't.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 6 Jan 2004 5:38 pm

Well, my wife is out of town, so I'm home early watching the kids, so what better to do than cross reference the current Top 20 Billboard Country Singles to the All Music Guide:

Hot Country Singles & TracksTM
Top 20 Positions /Issue Date: January 10, 2004

Position
1 There Goes My Life Kenny Chesney Sonny Garrish

2 Remember When, Alan Jackson Lloyd Green

3 You Can't Take The Honky Tonk Out Of The Girl, Brooks & Dunn Paul Franklin/Dan Dugmore

4 Honesty (Write Me A List), Rodney Atkins
Sonny Garrish/Scott Saunders

5 I Love This Bar, Toby Keith Paul Franklin

6 I Wanna Do It All, Terri Clark Paul Franklin

7 Drinkin' Bone, Tracy Byrd Paul Franklin/Dan Dugmore

8 Watch The Wind Blow By, Tim McGraw
Not listed, but it's his own band

9 She's Not Just A Pretty Face, Shania Twain Paul Franklin

10 Cowboys Like Us, George Strait Paul Franklin

11 Little Moments, Brad Paisley Randle Currie (yeah Randle...)

12 American Soldier, Toby Keith Paul Franklin

13 Chicks Dig It, Chris Cagle None listed

14 Hot Mama, Trace Adkins Steve Hinson (way to go, Steve …)

15 Hell Yeah, Montgomery Gentry Dan Dugmore

16 In My Daughter's Eyes, Martina McBride
Dan Dugmore

17 I Love You This Much, Jimmy Wayne Paul Franklin

18 Who Wouldn't Wanna Be Me, Keith Urban
not released yet, no credits available

19 I Wish, Jo Dee Messina Paul Franklin

20 Perfect, Sara Evans Gary Morse

Some records list two players.

One is unreleased with no credits.

Some surprises (you go, Steve Hinson. You too, Randle).

AllMusic is not perfect, but pretty close on the new stuff. Also, real album credits can be flawed, too.

Draw your own conclusions...

PS--Sorry for the crappy spacing--it looked good before I pasted it in...[This message was edited by John Macy on 06 January 2004 at 05:49 PM.][This message was edited by John Macy on 06 January 2004 at 05:55 PM.][This message was edited by John Macy on 06 January 2004 at 05:57 PM.]

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 6 Jan 2004 5:49 pm

sorry, double post[This message was edited by John Macy on 06 January 2004 at 05:53 PM.]