Too many pedals and knee levers?

Tom Vollmer · Post by **Tom Vollmer** » 30 Dec 2003 7:31 pm

What percent of your playing is done on E9 using A&B pedals and E to F and E to D# knee levers.This would cover 85 to 90 % of my playing and the other changes would be to add an occasional lick or run but I could play all nite using the above changes.Just wondering if I am alone in this mindset when I see most steels made now offer triple raises and double or triple drops.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 30 Dec 2003 7:46 pm

Tom.. I would say you are just about on the money. I use my #3 a lot too,.but 90% of what most of us do on the steel is two pedal/ two knees. I use everthing I have [7+4 on just the E9 on my Sho Bud],but most of the other changes are just for momentary runs or chords. A+B pedals rule!!! bob

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 31 Dec 2003 1:58 am

It is not about licks. It is about MUSIC. Are we having a popularity contest? Any pedal or knee that isn't used for more than (30%? 40%?) of playing should be removed because it isn't used much?
The A&B pedal and the raise and lower Es knee is used a lot because it gives you the most combinations to alter the tuning. Are you going to forgive the 2nd string D# to D lower just because it's not used a lot? Or the B-Bb knee? I'd be hard pressed to do without either.
The pedals are there to help you get the music from your head out of the amp.
If you hear something that needs a change, and you can't find another way to get it that would sound as good-- well, put it on.
I've been playing a S12 with 6 pedals and 8 knees for a long time, and I use them all.

JW
(in pre-2004 grump mode)

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 31 Dec 2003 2:13 am

This shouldn't turn into a "religious" discussion. Whatever you have on your guitar, whatever you use, whatever you like, use it, play it.

One of the best things about the Steel Guitar is that the instrument allows you to play the same thing in so many different ways. One might use a pedal for a certain change, one uses a kneel lever, the third one does it with a slant, and the fourth one doesn't like and play that thing at all! It's all a matter of personal likes and dislikes, also most of today's guitars make it real easy to experiment with new changes you might want to try out...

Happy New Year (Winnie, you are probably the first one to "slip" into 2004!!!)

Walter

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David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 31 Dec 2003 2:24 am

I am with Winnie on this.
Yes 80% of the time those basic pedals and levers work, But I couldn't live with out the B-Bb minor vertical.

I like the Franklin/Emmons pedal 4 a lot too.
And I am finding homes for B+C too.

The top strings would be nearly useless to me without the RKR RKL levers
I just wish I had G#-G lever
So not enough levers or pedals .. nope

On C6 I don't think it's possible to have enough if you play jazz. Double Crawford Clusters doesn't seem illogical any more.

But and a BIG but, it is ALL to create the musical end and not just to have a new change.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Dec 2003 6:50 am

I also play a single neck guitar with a bunch of stuff hung off it (8 and 8 -- all there at the same time -- no 'middle cluster').

If it's on my guitar I use it. I put it there and I can take it off if it outlives its usefulness. Is it too many? Only if I think so. I'm the one responsible for what the music that comes out of that guitar sounds like.

The key here, as others have pointed out, is MUSIC. You need the changes that are required to express what you have to say musically. For some folks, a 3x5 E9 works great --- more power to 'em.

You can either play or you can't. A 'player' can do more with a 3x5 than a 'pretender' can do with 10x10. Some folks feel that having all that metal dangling under their guitar makes them a better player. Not true, if they don't put them to use in a way that makes good music. The MUSIC is the thing. We get too hung up in the mechanics of pushing this and releasing that. It's WAAAAAY more than that.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 31 Dec 2003 6:55 am

This subject surfaces from time to time. It seems that there is some "kind of virtue" in having as few pedals and knee levers as one can possibly get away with.

My question is, why?

Who set the rules? I would highly question "90% of what most of us do on the steel is two pedal/ two knees." This has not proven itself to me the many times I have watched players on stage. Tom Brumley, Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, Jimmy Crawford, Russ Hicks, Hal Rugg, Doug Jernigan are but a few of the greats who use more than two pedals and two knee levers all the time.

But giving the benefit of the doubt, I can go one better. Jerry Byrd uses NO pedals or knee levers! And he plays ANY thing beautifully. Again, does that suggest we should NOT play pedals or knee levers?

Lloyd Green has never lowered his 4th string. Does that mean we should not either? Ralph Mooney has never had a C pedal! He has a pedal that raises his 4th string a whole tone that he gets by using his right foot coming off and on his volume pedal. Same question?

I must go along with Winnie Winstion on this. If a player hears a change; and that change is not on their quitar; and it is feasable to install it; put that sapsucker on there and enjoy it to its fullest; IF it is his umpteenth pedal or knee lever.

Stated before but still worth repeating, Roy Underhill would not use a power tool if you gave him all the money in the world. Yet Norm Abrams says he is a power tool "junkie"; and rarely uses a tool without a plug on it. Yet both have TV shows on woodworking.

Nope from where I stand there is NO virtue in holding down or removing knee levers IF a player likes that change regardless of how few times it is used.

Praise Jesus for blessing us with sooo many good and wonderful things,

carl

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 31 Dec 2003 8:53 am

Too many pedals and levers? - Nonsense!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Dec 2003 11:18 am

There are a lot of songs where I don't use my E lower at all, and others where I don't use the E raise. I almost always use the 2nd string lower, though.

I wouldn't want to do without any of my pedals or knee levers. I don't use them all in any one song, but I certainly use them all in the course of an evening.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 Dec 2003 1:37 pm

There was a time when I added pedals (up to 8+8 on my D10) because I thought they might impress someone. (They didn't.) I thought they'd make me sound better. (They didn't.) Some players seemed to add pedals just to have them (like 10+9), and I soon noticed that, to my ears, the amount of pedals really doesn't add to what we're doing.

What is "too many", and what is "just enough"? I only know that when I study certain "greats" (Emmons, White, Green, and Franklin, for instance), they seem to do fine with fewer pedals and levers. Then I think to myself, "Do the players with more pedals sound any better?" In my own narrow little mind, the answer is decidedly "No". Now, others may disagree, and that's fine, but it doesn't change my mind.

So, is playing better with fewer pedals a "virtue"? Make up your own minds (I've already made up mine, based on the 4 players I mentioned in the first paragraph). I have my opinion, and you all have yours.

In my mind, there definitely is a virtue associated with doing just as much (or more), with less.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 31 Dec 2003 1:59 pm

I have some pedals and knee levers on my guitars that I almost never use. Almost. But on the rare occasions when I want ro use them them, I'm glad they are there.

Better to have stuff you don't need, than need stuff you don't have.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 31 Dec 2003 2:08 pm

In my mind, there definitely is a virtue associated with doing just as much (or more), with less.

Well there's certainly a benefit: less weight to lug around!! That counts for a lot in my book!

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 31 Dec 2003 6:43 pm

I would have to say that if you have a pedal steel that has knee levers or pedals on it that you don't use , than maybe you have too many levers or pedals... But then one of your steel buddies comes along and and starts dancin on your steel playing every pedal and lever, and then you scratch your head and wonder if you have too many knee levers or pedals !!!....If you can get away with a couple levers and a couple of foot pedals, good for you ....If you play better with 10 foot pedals , and 9 knee levers, good for you too !!...There's no right or wrong here....It's what the individual is comfortable with !!... Look at that tape that Bobbe Seymour had out on the "Z" lever system ...Sounded pretty good to me...
Then I also heard other players with a massive setup of knee's and pedals, and you know what ?? THAT sounded good to me too !!....Jim

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 31 Dec 2003 8:22 pm

..I've watched and heard Tom Vollmer play...not flashy, but boy does he have soul!...Tom doesn't play licks, he plays music...I wish I could play half as pretty as he does...[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 31 December 2003 at 08:23 PM.]

Tom Vollmer · Post by **Tom Vollmer** » 31 Dec 2003 9:54 pm

Thanks and Happy New Year Pat and friends from Jersey.I was curious how other players thought about this and got a spectrum of opinions and that is where my interest was.Emmons D10 8+5,with the finish worn the most on A and B pedals.TV

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Jan 2004 8:34 am

Tom, perhaps this would be a good time for me to elaborate a little.

I often express an opinion here on the Forum that's geared more toward the beginning player. I think that many times, beginners buy a steel with 5 or less levers, and then go on to think that "If I only had a few more knee levers, I'd sound just like so-and-so", and most times, that's not the case.

I have no problem with experienced players "loading up" their guitars with a dozen levers, if that's what they want, and I don't personally care if they use them once a night, or on every song. But sometimes, I feel a player with only a year or two behind the axe can be actually distracted by having "too much going on", mechanically. Also, I'm not one to believe that the average player will lose face (or jobs) if he can't play a certain lick exactly like Paul, or Buddy. We all do what we can do, and except for the top dozen or so players, nobody can "do it all".

Many times here on the Forum, some players give the impression that "You gotta have an Emmons", "You gotta have these 8 or 9 levers", "You gotta have such-and-such amp, pickup, volume pedal", etc., etc., and that's just not the case, IMHO. Steelers from the time of Alvino Rey all the way up to Robert Randolph have "made it" with whatever equipment they chose to use. They weren't limited by eschewing fashion trends.

As far as my opinions go, everybody's got one, and let's face it...no real "pro" is going to listen to a "nobody" like me, anyway!

They already have their own opinions and experienced based on decades of playing. I only hope to help the "newbies" understand that the music mostly comes from the player, and not from his gear.

As I've often said..."You can't buy the sound, you have to make it!"

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Jan 2004 10:12 am

Tom,
The fact that you saw more wear on the A and B pedals is no indicator that the other stuff is not used or that there are too many pedals. All it tells you is that this guy, like most of us, are called on to play PRIMARILY COUNTRY MUSIC. Country pedal steel is centered around the I-IV no pedals / A+B sound and EVERY pedal steel player I've EVER seen play country -- including Buddy, Paul, Brumley, Hughey, right on down the line -- uses those two pedals WAAAAY more than anything else. It's what the music calls for.

Donny brings up a great point. As for most questions, debates, or issues we discuss here, there is often a different answer for an inexperienced player than the one for someone who has mastered the technique and musical aspects of playing pedal steel.

To the beginner:
Don't spread yourself too thin. Learn a piece at a time. Concentrate on one pedal or a combination of pedals or levers and understand why they are there. Starting out on a guitar with 10x10 could easily be intimidating and confusing. Only learn one tuning at a time. Become proficient on your chosen tuning before working on another.

To the experienced player:
I said it before. You are the only person who is accountable for the music that comes out of your amp. No matter whose guitar you play with however many pedals or levers or whom you imitate or whose amp and fx setup you have copied, it will be YOU whose reputation is on the line when you play. Your choice of equipment, notes to play, and all the other decisions will add up to how you sound to other musicians, other steel players, and the general audience. Use what tools you need to get the job done.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Jan 2004 10:28 am

A lot of good points made here...

Tom's original post stated that he did 85-90% on the bare minimum set-up - he's pretty close on that, I'd say. I'd add the B to Bb lever to that 'minimim', and I'd be happy for a night or two.

I do believe that I learned the tuning more thoroughly by virtue of the fact that, for some years, I only had a '3 + 2' set-up - if I wanted something that eluded me at first, I had to search around for it and think laterally. In time, I found a lot of interesting positions that I might have missed if my guitar had had more on it.

Now I have 5+4 (C6th) and 3+6 (E9th) - I bet my usage is 80% 3+2 and 3+4 respectively (if you see what I mean!); I wouldn't want to be without ANY of those pulls, but Tom has a point....

RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 01 January 2004 at 10:33 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 1 Jan 2004 10:29 am

Donny
It is true you have to make your own sound, but you can buy good equipment to help.

A high quality guitar with the right pickups helps too. Even the right volume pedal must be considered in the equation.

I have a Crate 65 watt amp 12 inch spkr. Probably worth $150. tops.

This is not going to produce the headroom, power and sound that a Webb, Nashville 400, Walker Stereo steel,etc. with 2 to 3 hundred watts and 15 inch Jbls, and black widows. They are definitely worth the extra money. We all know that.

The rest is in the left and right hands..........Happy New Year.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Tom Vollmer · Post by **Tom Vollmer** » 1 Jan 2004 10:53 am

Donny and Larry,Your posts are right on the money.You have expressed what I was thinking,espscially about helping the newcomers to get started and not boggeling their minds with a 8+8 setup.Donnie,Balto is not that far from Hamburg Pa.(about 15 miles above Reading Pa.).Maybe you could join us at one of Wally,s jams.Check him at www.pedalsteel.net TV

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 1 Jan 2004 2:07 pm

I think most of the posts here are right on. When I play E-9th I use the A and B pedal by far the most. However, when I use one of my 5 knee levers,it generally envolves use of the A or B pedal with it. It's the heart of the set up. I also believe in the theory to think music,not tunings and set ups.
As far as beginners,keep it simple. I think it's stronger in the long run to learn the basics of it well before worrying about a bunch of knee levers. When you are ready, you will feel the need as you progress and you'll understand better what they will do for you. Most of us could get by all night just fine with 10 strings A and B pedals and lowering Es. Thats still far more than I had on my first two Fenders for years. The extra levers give you more ways of extending what you hear and play. If you have levers you don't use,maybe someone can show you more ways to use them or change to something you can use. If that don't work,just take them off,put them in a box and send them to me.Just kidding

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 1 Jan 2004 4:55 pm

Some pedals and KL's are for purely experimental use only, and for the occasional trek into the unknown. The rest are for what we do all the time.

I wonder what Winnie sounds like when he's grumpy? :>)[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 01 January 2004 at 04:58 PM.]

Bruce W Heffner · Post by **Bruce W Heffner** » 1 Jan 2004 6:05 pm

Everyone should try playing a set without knee levers and see how much you really know about your guitar. I know the big boys can do it. As for me, less is more. On E9 the 3 pedals and E/D# lever is all I will ever need to make me happy. The rest are for effect. Well maybe one more lever that lowers the low G# to F# and raises the D# to E. Does anyone know how many levers Jimmy Day had on the guitar he used to record Steel and Strings?

Bruce W

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www.pedalsteel.net

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 1 Jan 2004 6:51 pm

Bruce,I don't know for sure but I think Day used his"Blue Darlin"double 8 Sho-Bud and probably had two levers to raise and lower the Es. Maybe just lower.

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 3 Jan 2004 12:46 am

Bruce- G#-F# on right knee left (along with raising string 1 to G#) there's a useful change!

As far as number of levers.
I'd never seen Buddy Cage play with his old gear- theaxe that was stolen.
He used to have 10/14.
Now he plays with 4/4. Although he tells me he really misses all the clusters, it would be hard to know that ANYTHING at all was missing, if you heard him play.