Question for Guitar Techs

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 28 Jun 2014 6:47 am

Can someone tell me, by looking at the copedent, which pulls/strings would have the most travel (as a guide to adjusting the stops). In other words,,,I know that an .014 requires more travel to raise one tone than an .036 to raise one tone,,,but when we are considering 3 tones on a heavy string vs 2 tones on a lighter string,,,,or raises vs. lowers etc,,,then it is trial and error for me. Does anyone have a better grasp on this?? Can anyone look at a copedent chart and say "this pull has the most travel on this pedal,,or lever"??? I could provide a copy of my copedent/string gauges.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 28 Jun 2014 6:55 am

As a general rule of thumb, the distance requierd to raise or lower a string is inversely proportional to the strings gauge.
For example, if you play an S12U, for your A-pedal B-to-C#'s, string-5 B-to-C# will require more distance to raise the B to C# than string-9, and string-9 will require more distance to raise B to C# than string 12.

Louis Falardeau · Post by **Louis Falardeau** » 28 Jun 2014 7:00 am

The thinnest string requires the most travel.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 28 Jun 2014 7:40 am

Pete and Louis,,,thanks,,,I appreciate your responses,,but I think I expressed an understanding of this concept in my post (however Pete,,,there are exceptions to your answer,,,i.e. it is the inner core gauge on wound strings that determines required travel distance).

My question, for guitar techs,,,,can you determine by LOOKING at the copedent which pulls/strings would require the most travel,,,,aside from trial and error? Maybe Russ Wever, Mickey Adams, Paul Redmond, Johnny Cox,,,any of the guys that have worked set ups regularly????

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jun 2014 8:17 am

I think if you do it enough, you can. I bet Bruce Z or Paul F or Bud C could look at a copedent and know exactly how to rod it.
The rest of us should just look at a rodding chart, like these
http://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html and notice the relationships between and among them. With time and thought, it should fall into place.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 28 Jun 2014 8:39 am

Lane,,,please re-read my original post,,,,been using Carter charts for 20 years,,,not asking how to rod it,,,,asking travel requirements,,,,"With time and thought, it should fall into place",,,,,no,,,,with trial and error it falls into place,,,which is what I am trying to circumvent,,,

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jun 2014 9:04 am

Sonny, I'm saying that with time and practice, and noticing how the strings react, that trial and error disappear.
Because the same strings react the same ways, a few minutes of reflection and planning would accurately predict how to rod w change you'd never had thought of.
The rodding chart, by telling you what HAS happened, gives clues to what WILL happen if try something new.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 28 Jun 2014 9:05 am

aha...here's that age old problem of believing everything you read from know-it-alls that may be wrong.
didn't lane say on another thread that the sting 'core' determines the pull distance? now that must be wrong if thinner plain strings require more distance than the bottom strings. shame on you, lane!
sonny...sometimes trial and error are necessary to your learning process, even though you'd rather not have to bother.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 28 Jun 2014 9:08 am

Sonny Jenkins wrote: (however Pete,,,there are exceptions to your answer,,,i.e. it is the inner core gauge on wound strings that determines required travel distance).

hence my last post

just joking with you lane, but what is the truth?

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 28 Jun 2014 10:04 am

I think my whole inquiry has been misconstrued,,,
Chris ,,it was me that referenced the inner core i.e. 7th (probably 8th also on most brands)string wound requires more travel than 6th string plain,,,even though 7th )string gauge appears bigger.
Lane,,,after re-rodding most every guitar I've owned the past 35 or so years(and I think I've owned every brand),,,and setting my stop based on the pull with the longest travel (even before I read John Fabians tips) I was just wondering, from the guitar techs,,,,well,,,never mind,,,,. I should have contacted some of them individually. Thanks guys,,,I'm out.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 28 Jun 2014 10:26 am

what...? you mean you'd rather talk to professionals instead of me and lane?? ha ha

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jun 2014 10:36 am

Sonny, I think it's at least partly knack. And you can't teach knack.
I just know that the rodding charts pointed me in a direction that tends to have few errors.
I wasn't trying to be snide or condescending, but helpful.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 28 Jun 2014 10:42 am

Sonny, I know you use rodding charts that are available online.
What exactly are trying to figure out here?
fwiw, As a rule of thumb, when someone says "As a rule of thumb..." that typically implies that there may be some exceptions... there may be an exception to this.

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 28 Jun 2014 5:27 pm

I honestly think that as the tension increases, such as on higher strings, the travel requirements increase exponentially. I don't think its really a matter of gauge..Im guessing but, it think its an edumacated guess...

Don't forget a couple of very important things as well...The RATIO that the changer fingers pivot is directly related to this...ALL guitars are not the same....Something that works on a Mullen, may not feel comfortable on a Zum....I have in the past rodded a Zum to approximate the Mullen chart, and the guitar was stiff as a board, and I had to start over....FYI

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jun 2014 5:34 pm

Right you are, Mr. Adams. Tighter strings require more travel than slacker, and that comes into play as well. Like quadratic equations or something.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Jun 2014 6:23 pm

Mickey Adams wrote:I honestly think that as the tension increases, such as on higher strings, the travel requirements increase exponentially. I don't think its really a matter of gauge..Im guessing but, it think its an edumacated guess...
Don't forget a couple of very important things as well...The RATIO that the changer fingers pivot is directly related to this...ALL guitars are not the same....Something that works on a Mullen, may not feel comfortable on a Zum....I have in the past rodded a Zum to approximate the Mullen chart, and the guitar was stiff as a board, and I had to start over....FYI

In other words, the only way to avoid trial and error is...more trial and error.

IMHO, part of "fine tuning" a setup just has to involve trying, changing, trying, tweaking, and then deciding if it's what you really want. So, although improvements can always be made, at some point you just have to say..."that's probably close enough".

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 28 Jun 2014 7:50 pm

Let's say you are going to fill up all changer slots on a few strings.. Say, all 3 lowers and all three raises..hypothetically let's say your going to have two wholes and one half raise on string 4...you're only real decision would be where you want to utilize the longest travel raise, and whether it's a pedal or lever.. Which one is most comfortable with that longer throw..?. Rarely do I see this, but that seems to be the biggest issue.. And it's not REALLY a big one. Today's modern guitars can easy accommodate these. The next issue is HOW your going to sequence the rod install. When things get really tight, I do them one string at a time. This way, no rods are going to cross when all is said and done, it's neat, and drag free. I've also seen them rodded by pedal or lever sequence. For the Mullen this is a snap. BUT, if you have an older Zum or fessy bellcranks, that can present another set of sequence variables to consider. Once you know how to set the pedal stops correctly for each group, what you have left are the most effective throws your guitar/your copedent can facilitate... Yes, I have had a lot of trial and error over the last several years, and I rod guitars differently. And there is a point where it just can't get "better" it can be different, you can definitely reach an optimum setup.
And to answer your first question...Yes I can look at your copedent chart and tell you where to put what...without a doubt...Does this help? Would you like to pick my brain on the phone?
Ill be coming through New Braunfels on my way to Bandera in my bus on Wednesday BTW....happy to meet with you too Sonny...

Joe Naylor · Post by **Joe Naylor** » 29 Jun 2014 7:34 am

I agree with Mickey and Sonny you need to take him up on the offer to meet.

my 2 cents

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 8 Jul 2014 7:03 am

,,,,"the best laid plans,,,,,",,,,but hey,,,I appreciate the good intentions,,,