When Is It My Turn To Play?

[Doug Beaumier]

Did I ever tell ya about the nonstop guitar player who wouldn't even give me a ride on SLEEPWALK!? WTF??

that's like a steel guitarist playing Wipeout or Johnny B. Goode from start to finish while the guitarist looks on.

[Richard Sinkler]

Did I ever tell ya about the nonstop guitar player who wouldn't even give me a ride on SLEEPWALK!? WTF?? Last time I'll ever agree to play with him...

Did I ever tell you of the band I was in that the guitar player was the one who played Sleepwalk. I hate the song, so I resisted learning it until I was harassed enough to learn it. So I did the first half, and he did the last half. I was more than happy when I didn't have to play it.

[Kevin Raymer]

Guys....

I'm gonna have to submit just a little different take on this.

As a guitarist of 30 years who just recently started playing pedal steel I will just say that I had no idea how much I DID NOT know about music.

And while every rust pickin, squid eating, insult about garage band brained guitarists that have thus been voiced may be true....

It also may be that they just don't know any better or any different way.

Until I started sitting in front of Mike Sweeney a couple a times a month I had no idea how much about the dynamics of music I had to learn.

So... While it's easy to get mad at them, it might be worth considering feeling sorry for those poor six string pluckers....

Because.... Whether they realize it or not...

The suffer from "INSTRUMENT ENVY"

They WISH they could do what you guys CAN do.
( and what I hope to be able to do someday..)

Respectfully,

Kevin

[Jack Aldrich]

Ah, the fine art of playing fills! The non-listeners haven't a clue. David Lindley, IMHO, is the master of fills. In Hawaii, they say "play in da pukas" (puka is "hole" in Hawaiians). You simply cannot do it except by listening and knowing the lyrics to the song.

[Doug Beaumier]

By the way... some steel guitarists are also guilty of hogging all the fills, never backing off, and clashing with other players who are trying to play backup. I've heard bandleaders complain about steel players like that. One singer told me he liked my playing because I don't get it the way...! I'll take that as a compliment. At least he didn't say "I like it when you don't play".

[Fred Glave]

We're getting closer to the point of this topic. Any musician including the steel player can be guilty of this. Knowing when to play and when not to play. Our sax player doesn't discriminate against the steel. He freezes everyone out.

[Bobby D. Jones]

I never have forgot on the Talk with The Masters Video. One of them said it is important to know how to play, More Important know when to play. Oh how important. I played for 4 years with a band that had a fiddle player, But he had been a Square Dance fiddler for years. He wanted to kick the song off and play the whole song to the end. He was not bad as long as he was playing through a microphone, He would step back and be low in the mix. Let him plug into the board or into a amp. You could not hear the keyboard or Steel. The last show we played together he set an open back amp. right in front of the steel and keyboard. We could not hear ourselves. Glad that band never got back together. The worst is play with a lead player that has a volume pedal and bends the strings, If he walks on you are lost. Been there and done that to.

[Alan Tanner]

It works both ways. We have a steel picker here who plays extremely loud, plays constant, and gives no breaks. Kicks everything off at half speed and "noodles" in between songs. He's been playing over 50 years. I, and most others, will not work with him any longer. Then we have the guys who constantly "practice" in between and during a tune. But when it comes time to take a lead, a look of panic comes over their face as they violently shake their heads from side to side. I think fiddles and harmonicas seem to be the worst tho.........ESPECIALLY LOUD sqeeky fiddles. I think another problem is that a lot of pickers can't seem to find the "halfway" point. Some of it comes from experiance, but I find no excuse for anyone who has been playing more that a couple of years. If pickers would realize that taking turns makes the song more interesting and actually improves the dynamics of their OWN break, maybe those who want to be the "star" would ease off. Of course,that's not gonna happen in most cases. Hard to teach old dogs new tricks and all that......

[Roy McKinney]

Well, not being a pro steel player (just an amateur) I am fortunate enough that I have found a couple of "RELICS" (one is 80, the other one is 75 and I am 80 also) to play with. Just 2 guitars and the steel. The rules given to me when I started playing with them was very simple. If you kick off the song you end it. If you kick the song, the other lead player takes the first backup, you take the second backup (and the same thing for the brakes). They don't care if I am out of tune, off fret, or screw up and play the wrong notes, but don't ever get out of time. If your out of time they can't dance, other wise they don't care what you are doing or playing. We only play at senior centers, and local jams.

[Lane Gray]

Guys....


As a guitarist of 30 years who just recently started playing pedal steel I will just say that I had no idea how much I DID NOT know about music.
...

It also may be that they just don't know any better or any different way.
..

In that case, I submit they've never even LISTENED to a F#$^&@ing record.

I admit I had a (musically) privileged upbringing, getting to watch Ben Eldridge, John Duffey and Mike Auldridge giving each other room to breathe.
But if you're gonna play MUSIC with other people, you have to spend a LOT of time laying out, unless you play either drums or bass (and then you still have to pay attention to what everyone else is playing).

The people who can't be bothered to make MUSIC with others are not musicians, and need helpful correction. If they're not amenable, then they need to get given up on.

Tom often says one of the most valuable lessons in musicianship came when Bill Emerson fired him for not learning when to play simpler when it was called for (He was with Bill between the Gentlemen and the Seldom Scene, where he was also working with Mike Auldridge). Too many bassists who revere dad don't realize how much time he spends playing 1-5-1-5

[Bill Sinclair]

If pickers would realize that taking turns makes the song more interesting and actually improves the dynamics of their OWN break, maybe those who want to be the "star" would ease off.

Man, you ain't kiddin. Sometimes even just taking a second chorus lessens the impact of what you had to say in the first. I've certainly been guilty of overplaying on a solo but I do like think that I play well with others.

[Barry Blackwood]

In that case, I submit they've never even LISTENED to a F#$^&@ing record.

They are listening, but they are not hearing. To them, listening is a passive experience..

[Jay Hudson]

I just crank up the Boss Tone and let em' have it.

[Richard Sinkler]

By the way... some steel guitarists are also guilty of hogging all the fills, never backing off, and clashing with other players who are trying to play backup. I've heard bandleaders complain about steel players like that. One singer told me he liked my playing because I don't get it the way...! I'll take that as a compliment. At least he didn't say "I like it when you don't play".

I just love playing in bands that have a rhythm instrument, as well as steel and lead guitar. That way I don't have to comp rhythm parts and can actually just fold my arms and not play anything. Of course, at my age I can usually take a 30 second nap during some songs.

[Richard Sinkler]

In that case, I submit they've never even LISTENED to a F#$^&@ing record.

They are listening, but they are not hearing. To them, listening is a passive experience..

They may be listening and hearing. The problem is that they are not UNDERSTANDING.

[Lane Gray]

Of course, at my age I can usually take a 30 second nap during some songs.

I once did that. Played a gig Saturday on short sleep.
Fell asleep at the steel, even missed a solo. At the end of the song, I felt a jab in the shoulder (Tele headstock), and heard the bandleader say "Mr. Gray, would you care to join us?" Oops

[Barry Blackwood]

The problem is that they are not UNDERSTANDING.

You have to get their attention first..

[Brint Hannay]

Sometimes even just taking a second chorus lessens the impact of what you had to say in the first.

One of my least favorite onstage experiences: I'm in the zone, I play a solo that for once I'm really happy with, the bandleader's digging it, maybe there's even applause from the audience, and just as I'm bringing it home, enjoying the blissful moment, the bandleader calls out "Take another one!"

[Kevin Raymer]

Guys....


As a guitarist of 30 years who just recently started playing pedal steel I will just say that I had no idea how much I DID NOT know about music.
...

It also may be that they just don't know any better or any different way.
..

In that case, I submit they've never even LISTENED to a F#$^&@ing record

I guess my point was there's a lot of difference in listening and "Understanding"...

I fear the majority of the unwashed masses of semi-pro or amature musicians don't know and/or understand where they fit into a band. Like I said learning to play pedal steel and "think" like a pedal steel player has changed my whole perspective on music and musical group performances..

Some of the stuff that Mike Sweeney tells me just "off hand" is a revelation to me.

I'm really glad he was able to work me into his student load.
It's been well worth my investment and my trips to Nashville...

[Sandy Inglis]

I nearly gave up on the Pedal Steel because of this very issue. When I first started, I was advised to get some experience and 'sit-in' where possible. I arranged to sit-in with a local 'Country Music Club' and played for free. The guitarist and the keyboard player completely shut me out by playing everything (even the steel parts). It was hard enough to try to play a difficult instrument, but as an experienced musician, I thought I could handle it - I gave up on them, not the Pedal Steel (thank goodness).
A friend of mine who also plays Steel, also tried doing that with a different club and had exactly the same experience. He happened to have been there when I had one of my bad experiences and was horrified then.
I must say that later I sat in with another group who had played in bands with Paddy Long and the actually allowed me to 'play' - not shut me out. It all comes down to ignorance and I think 'instrument envy (LOL) As we don't have a lot of Steel player around here they just don't know to, But also a lot of them are not ignorant, just arrogant!! I've moved on from them and I am happily playing regularly in a great band (with regular work) and try to forget them still hacking away (at each other).

[Richard Sinkler]

Of course, at my age I can usually take a 30 second nap during some songs.

I once did that. Played a gig Saturday on short sleep.
Fell asleep at the steel, even missed a solo. At the end of the song, I felt a jab in the shoulder (Tele headstock), and heard the bandleader say "Mr. Gray, would you care to join us?" Oops

My worst was playing a club Wed - Sat and working a day job. On Wed and Thurs, I could curl up in one of vacant booths and nap for 15 minutes.

[Richard Sinkler]

I nearly gave up on the Pedal Steel because of this very issue. When I first started, I was advised to get some experience and 'sit-in' where possible. I arranged to sit-in with a local 'Country Music Club' and played for free. The guitarist and the keyboard player completely shut me out by playing everything (even the steel parts). It was hard enough to try to play a difficult instrument, but as an experienced musician, I thought I could handle it - I gave up on them, not the Pedal Steel (thank goodness).
A friend of mine who also plays Steel, also tried doing that with a different club and had exactly the same experience. He happened to have been there when I had one of my bad experiences and was horrified then.
I must say that later I sat in with another group who had played in bands with Paddy Long and the actually allowed me to 'play' - not shut me out. It all comes down to ignorance and I think 'instrument envy (LOL) As we don't have a lot of Steel player around here they just don't know to, But also a lot of them are not ignorant, just arrogant!! I've moved on from them and I am happily playing regularly in a great band (with regular work) and try to forget them still hacking away (at each other).

I guess I have been real lucky. most every band I have ever played with, or sat in with, always gave lots of free space to cut loose. One though, the band leader hired a new lead guitar player. That summabeach never shut up from the time he first got his amp on stage until he turned it off at the end of the gig. Caused me to quit the band and go into a period (10 years or so) of not gigging.

[Tom Wolverton]

I've had this happen. I just leave at the end of the gig, and make a mental note to not play with them again. I've given up trying to explain it. Guys like than just don't get it. They are players, not musicians. They have no idea what ensemble playing means.

Remember: "You can't explain corners to a circle"

[Dave Harmonson]

This thread reminds me of thing that happened back in the early 90's. A club in Tacoma WA was doing an all day benefit with 6 or so different bands. Nokie Edwards who frequented many of the places back then came in. One of the bands asked him to sit in and he obliged. They barely let him play anything and even played The Ventures' Apache and didn't give him any of it. I was standing with a couple of friends at the bar and we were stunned. Nokie, being the consummate nice guy never complained, but I couldn't help thinking he must have been gritting his teeth or something. I quipped to my friends "that's like asking Tony Bennett to sing some back up for I Left My Heart in San Francisco".

[Clyde Mattocks]

I told this story in a similar thread a while back, but it's worth repeating in this one. I was hired to play a gig with a band where the lead guitarist and keyboard player played all the fills and solos, even came in over me if I dared to start backing a section. So I just didn't play all night. At the end of the gig, the guy that hired me paid me, gushed about my playing and said, "Man, we couldn't have done it without you."