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Topic: Getting a domniant and passive tone in a dyad |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 27 May 2014 7:35 pm |
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What's the best way to play a dyad to express one note as more dominant than the other. For example, if you're going to play thirds but want the lower note to be the dominant tone and it's third to be passive, what's the best way to achieve this?
The obvious answer is to strike one string lighter than the other, but I have two problems with that: 1) it takes an insane amount of coordination when you're playing fast, and 2) the higher note sounds brighter so even if its string is struck lightly, it doesn't sound passive to the lower string which is struck more firmly. I fiddled with my settings on my amp and it didn't make a difference.
I've also tried changing my right hand shape, so that I strike the passive note with the side of my pick while I strike the lower one flush. This might be the answer. I'd appreciate if someone could tell me if this is right before I put too much time into it.
I haven't really run into this problem before and I think it's because our ears know which note it wants to hear, so once it hears that note in a dyad, it is automatically perceived as the dominant tone. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 May 2014 7:48 pm
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If you practice playing your dyads and triads so they sound like one note or one sound with nothing dominating at all it becomes natural and easy to bring out one note or the other.
Learning how to get your intervals and chords truly even is a very long process. We are talking thousands of hours of focused practice time. I struggle with it constantly. Buddy Charleton showed me how to listen for it.
Spend some time listening to JayDee Mannes. He is a master at that level of phrasing.
_________________
Bob |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2014 9:57 pm
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What Bob said. I once spent 23 takes in the studio trying to get a lick that ended in a P6 (on the C6 neck, of course) chord balanced just right. I wanted the high root (2nd string) to be loudest, then the 8th string 3, then the 6th string 7th, then the other two didn't matter. AND it was a staccato chopped chord, at the end of a set of 8th note triplets. The producer was more patient with me than the band, who got plenty irritated, UNTIL i hit just the right blend on 23.
Most of the time, a diad can get struck with the right balance after you've gotten enough seat time in.
DON'T GIVE UP. The fact that you notice you're not pleasing your ears is a sign you are getting better as a musician, even if your ears are getting ahead of your hands.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 May 2014 12:54 am
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Lane - I've been there, both sides of the glass! The other 22 are soon forgotten.
What Bob says applies to any instrument that plays chords - when you've learnt to get everything even, then you have the level of control to create different voicings.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 7:28 am
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At the risk of asking a dumb question, I suppose a diad is a two string chord and the triad is a three string chord?
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 8:33 am
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| Bill Duncan wrote: |
| At the risk of asking a dumb question, I suppose a diad is a two string chord and the triad is a three string chord? |
Yeah. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2014 12:31 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
Lane - I've been there, both sides of the glass! The other 22 are soon forgotten.
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Given that I think one of the coolest things is watching and/or helping someone "get it," I thought it was neat when a coupla impatient members heard the difference between 22 and 23, and got the difference between "good" and "right."
Bill, NEVER be afraid of asking the dumb questions. For every person that posts, there's probably 15 lurkers, and I bet a handful of folk just had you ask their question.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 12:44 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Bill, NEVER be afraid of asking the dumb questions. For every person that posts, there's probably 15 lurkers, and I bet a handful of folk just had you ask their question. |
Not to go off-topic, but I agree. The hardest part of music theory is getting the terminology straight and using it precisely. When it's all boiled down, talking about music is talking about energy waves caused by the vibration of matter (which in turn is caused by energy waves). Unless we're talking in terms of Hz and what not, it's all abstractions... which are often difficult to define. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 May 2014 12:51 pm
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| Curt, going to your original question - why not put a few ms picking delay between the harmony note and the melody note so the decay envelope puts the relative volumes of the notes are stacked correctly. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 12:57 pm
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| Tom Gorr wrote: |
| Curt, going to your original question - why not put a few ms delay between the harmony note and the melody note so the decay envelope puts the relative volumes right for you. |
Do you mean along with using the volume pedal to eliminate the string attack from the harmony note? I've tried staggering the notes slightly, but I don't want the harmony note to be the first note the listener hears. For the particular song I'm working on, that would be disruptive. Also, I'm probably not good enough yet to be able to do it quickly enough so that the melody note still falls on the rhythm.
The exact context of this is that the preceding move is two frets down and I'm executing a string-pull on the first string to raise it to a G# (my copedent only raises it to G) and as I release the string and knee lever, I want the note to flow down into the dyad that I'm trying to get. |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 1:22 pm
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i would say the best way to achieve this, if i was trying to separate the 2 notes is always pick the dominant note with the thumb...."a good rule of thumb"
- the thumb is wayyyy stronger vs the other digits, and most people have to really temper down their T strokes to get them to blend. i remember a conversation at a seminar (Paul Franklin?...can't recall exactly) where he said he specifically tried to focus on getting all the notes even, as the thumb is so dominant.
i played banjo (poorly) for many years and one of the habits you pick up is learning to separate the melody note from the "roll notes" if you don't, it sounds sloppy - so i kind of had that skill already ingrained.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 6:56 pm
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| I'll keep working on your ideas here, but in the meantime, I think a workaround is to invert the dyad so that my dominant note is on top. It'll pop-out that way. It definitely gives it a different character, but only the most sensitive listeners would probably realize that it's a compromise. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 May 2014 7:00 pm
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People don't think much about what they don't hear.
In my own playing my index finger picks a little weaker than the others, a hand position influence to be sure, but focused practise seems to cure a lot of ills. |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 7:28 pm
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I think the thumb tends to be dominant, so I think if the bottom note in a dyad would tend to be the one you would wanting to emphasize?
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 7:32 pm
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I think I have enough coordination where thumb v. finger isn't what makes the difference. I'm thinking I just need to strike the strings in a way that I get a decent string attack from the lower note but not the higher note. I've been focusing on changing my right hand shape to accomplish this. It just so happens that my thumb strikes the dominant note.
The root of the problem is that the higher notes sounds brighter if its struck at all in any kind of normal way. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2014 8:16 pm
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Make an exercise of hitting triads in a manner to accentuate different notes in the grip. In playing at semi-relaxed pace, you should be able, with time, be able to choose which one sticks out.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 8:34 pm
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I should tell you guys the context so that I make more sense. I need the passive note to be really passive, not just less-dominant. The dyad that I'm talking about is on the first beat of the chord change. The passive note in that dyad is the same note as the one before it, in the previous chord. In order to make the chord-change distinct, the dominant note of the dyad needs to boom over the passive note. Otherwise, your ear may naturally favor the same note that was played previously.
If I was playing this song as part of band, the guitar and bass would probably do the job for me. But I'm just playing this as a solo piece. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2014 8:49 pm
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That makea it easier. Hit the first note HARD so that it rings all the way thru. Then add the other note. Being new it'll stick out.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 May 2014 8:57 pm
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Have you tried experimenting with different voicings ? You should be able to find the exact same intervals in a least three different places on the neck. Also look for open string options for your oblique motion note.
_________________
Bob |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 28 May 2014 9:06 pm
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| Thank you to everyone in this thread. You've given me enough to think about and practice to keep me occupied for a while. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 29 May 2014 2:41 am
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Goll-ee, everybody already said what I started thinking:
| Quote: |
Why not put a few ms picking delay between the harmony note and the melody note so the decay envelope puts the relative volumes of the notes are stacked correctly.
i would say the best way to achieve this, if i was trying to separate the 2 notes is always pick the dominant note with the thumb...."a good rule of thumb" |
But except maybe, the other thing I was thinking is that there's a real relationship between pitch and “presence.†You've played long enough for steel guitar to mess you up vis-a-vis the even-tempered thing, and it kind-of works out that many notes have a “window†of in-tunedness. String quartet “chords†are sometimes way off (ET) base, and the better they are, the more they do it! The stuff those guys can do with single notes swelling up and changing pitch & tone... well maybe that's why there are so many of them. Hmmm! 
Surely not the root, but maybe like a non-dominant 6th->3rd needs to be a hair on the "flat" side of the envelope? Or drift flat as it's changing function and dying... (snif)  If this is the last note(s) of a solo "performance" piece, that's Katy-bar-the-door-time!  |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 29 May 2014 4:13 am
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To keep sweetness and dominance in a chord lead melody, aim for keeping the melody note on top and let the harmonies flow and move below. The melody, to my ears, gets buried inside the harmony notes otherwise. Or, step outside that thought for creating a lick or effect. Old school.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 29 May 2014 6:02 am
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I dunno, Dennis.
Melody in the center: hallmark of most bluegrass trios, and I've never confused Duffey with melody.
Melody on the bottom: later Country Gentlemen, and you could tell Charlie had the melody.
But the other two parts were lower in the mix.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 29 May 2014 6:26 am
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This is a really great thread. I have worried about this issue for quite a while, and assumed that everyone else could do it and I was just plain clumsy. It's encouraging to hear others have to work on this too.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 29 May 2014 8:22 am
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Isn't what he is doing is using it as a leading note to the next chord so if you have the delay you would have the effect he is after. So if he blocks the other notes a little earlier or as Lane said let the note he is after ring, have the same effect.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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