Does adding an extension nut affect the neck of a...

Daniel Fairman · Post by **Daniel Fairman** » 8 May 2014 8:03 am

Hello, had a quick question: I was considering buying a cheaper accoustic and putting the estension nut on it to make a cheap dobro to play around on. I have heard from one site that this could cause extra stress on the neck of the guitar. If not is it safe to do this on any electric or accoustic 6 string guitar? Thanks. Dan

Noah Miller · Post by **Noah Miller** » 8 May 2014 8:18 am

There's no fundamental problem with doing it, but if you put heavy strings on to play Hawaiian style, the neck will probably require significant adjustment to straighten out again if you convert it back to Spanish style.

Of course, from a tonal standpoint you're still better off getting a cheap resonator.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 8 May 2014 8:20 am

The extension nut itself is perfectly safe, it's the physics of raising the strings and tuning them up to tension that puts more stress on the neck.

You might want to avoid traditional dobro tuning, low-to-high, GBDGBD in using a dobro string set which typically has a .056w sixth string. If you would like to play in G tuning, then use standard guitar open G, DGDGBD. By having the fifth and sixth strings tuned down, there should be no issue.

There are many exceptions of players using standard dobro GBDGBD tuning on roundneck guitars for years and nothing bad ever happened, Uncle Josh Graves played a prewar Dobro known as "Cliff" for many years that had a round neck.

But these are exceptions to the rule, and I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending that to anyone. Any time someone brings this up on the resonator forums, someone always trots out the exceptions, "I've had a round neck for years tuned to GBDGBD with a nut riser - no problem." If the guitar is cheap enough and you don't mind taking the risk, go for it. For myself, if I could come up with $200-$250, I'd just buy a used Chinese-built resonator with a square neck and do it the right way.

Jerry Douglas has told the story of when he started out as a kid, before he had a real Dobro, his dad set him up with a standard guitar with nut riser. One morning he came down for breakfast and saw that the neck on his guitar had "blown" and was badly warped. He had it tuned to GBDGBD.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 8 May 2014 8:24 am

Daniel Fairman wrote:a cheaper accoustic

If going the cheap route just assume the neck will be trashed and don't worry about it.

If this concerns you at all buy a square neck guitar.

h

Daniel Fairman · Post by **Daniel Fairman** » 8 May 2014 8:53 am

Ok,
I'll go with what was said about getting a cheap china made resonator. What are good starter resonators that I can buy and play as is, with tuners that stay in tune and etc.. That is probably a better idea than possibly destroying a guitar. It isn't going to be fantasy but it needs to be in tune and playable without any trouble. At least until I can upgrade.
I have a morrell mls plus lap steel which I got for like 85 bucks. It is ok but it needs better tuning machines, a better nut, and a bridge eventually. I may just sell it and work up to a basic dobro if I can get a reasonable price for one. Can you get something decent for maybe 230 or so? Thanks for the tips!

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 8 May 2014 9:09 am

The least expensive (new) guitar I recommend is the Gretch Boxcar squareneck for about $350.

Anything cheaper is pure crap and believe me, the Gretch is not without occasional issues. Set your expectations accordingly.

A much better guitar(s) is either a used Goldtone or Wechter/Scheerhorn, probably in the $400-750 (depending on model) if you can find one.

Search the forum here. Lots of conversation about these guitars

YMMV

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 8 May 2014 9:21 am

And you can probably find a slightly used Gretsch online and elsewhere for less. I think a fair number of folks take up the dobro with good intentions, particularly after they have been at a concert seeing the likes of Jerry Douglas, Rob Ickes, or Andy Hall in action, then after awhile they lose interest and throw in the towel. Then the guitar goes up for sale.

Try not to be in a hurry, look around.

Here is a Regal for sale on the Forum, don't know it it is still available:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=264358

I'm with Howard on the Gold Tone/Beard and Wechter/Scheerhorn, but I can understand if the ballpark $550+ (for a used one) is out of the question. These are good guitars for the money and a big jump up from entry level Gretsch, Regal, Johnsons, etc.

As well they should be. As I have written in the past, if you went to a store that carried Yamaha flattops from their Chinese factory, you would expect that the $700 version is going to be a much better guitar than the $300 version.

Chase Brady · Post by **Chase Brady** » 9 May 2014 4:33 am

I have a Cort 12 string that I no longer play as a 12-string due to arthritis. I figured it would be a natural choice to convert for lap style playing. I did, and put it into open D tuning with the John Pearse "New D" string set. It sounded great. After a few months I noticed pronounced finish cracks forming on the back at the neck joint. No real structural damage, but I took this as a bad sign and converted it back. I figured if it could handle 12 strings it shouldn't have any problem, but apparently the taller nut stresses the neck and neck joint in a different way. It seems that some instruments will work well that way and some won't, and I know of no way to tell without trying it.

--Chase

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 9 May 2014 6:34 am

I tried this on a couple of guitars, using smaller than standard gauge strings, but wasn't pleased with the results. Check out Rondo Music and pick you up a squareneck for around $179 and you will be much happier I think.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 9 May 2014 9:51 am

Who cares about stress on the neck when you intend to play with a tone bar?
Six strings is nothing. I build instruments with as many as eighteen strings, twelve being my average. Wood is a lot stronger than people make out. If you were concerned about playing on the frets it would be one thing, but once you put a nut riser on and play only with a tone bar, forget everything they tell you about what a guitar will stand, because it's nonsense.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 9 May 2014 10:10 am

Alan Brookes wrote: forget everything they tell you about what a guitar will stand, because it's nonsense.

Damn...

32 years of experience down the drain. I am devastated. Flashbacks of those guitars on the bench. Restoration on classic 175's & 206's. All of those builds.

The sob stories. Regals, Flinthills, Rogues, Fenders, Goldtones, Scheerhorns, Taylors and a host of others.

Paul & I are getting together soon to see where we go from here.

Life no longer has meaning.

I have no words.

Steve Branscom · Post by **Steve Branscom** » 9 May 2014 11:50 am

Now Howard. It's gonna be alright. Do I need to come over there and remove all the knives from around your place?

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 9 May 2014 1:03 pm

You are a true friend.

If you good bring a good bottle of Zinfandel that would ease the ache.

I'm pretty numb right now...!

h

Paul Honeycutt · Post by **Paul Honeycutt** » 18 May 2014 5:14 pm

My acoustic lap steel is a '60's Harmoney Sovereign that has an extension nut and soundhole pickup. I have it in open D using medium gauge Elixers. I've had no problems. It needed a neck set when I got it so it only cost me $125. It really sounds good.

Steve Green · Post by **Steve Green** » 19 May 2014 3:49 am

Here's a SQUARE NECK from Rondo for 179.95

CLICK HERE

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 19 May 2014 11:23 am

Hello Daniel. One thing nobody mentioned is to make sure you get a guitar with flat fretboard, because an extension (riser) nut doesn't sit very well on a rounded neck.

I recommend that folks get an old Stella or facsimile, as they sound good (usually) and you will never have to worry about any neck bending. Never. I have a half dozen of them tuned E C# A E A E for teaching.

Geo

Chris Sattler · Post by **Chris Sattler** » 20 May 2014 3:26 pm

Hi Daniel. About 7 years ago I thought I might like to try dobro. I bought a cheap guitar from ebay for $26 (brand new, I might add) and a riser for the nut. I did also put on a tailpiece as I had read that the extra tension may rip the bridge off and it was a VERY cheap and nasty guitar.
Now I don't really know if there is any extra tension or not but it performed well enough for me to decide if I wanted to purchase a Proper dobro.
The neck eventually bowed to such a point that at the 12th fret it was almost a half tone out. the fret markers were just a suggestion after a while and one had to play by ear basically. But it was a lot of fun.
A friend of mine is doing an album shortly called "the crematorium of music". The front cover will have a bonfire of musical instruments and it will no doubt end up there. I may retrieve the hardware. It's gonna be one HOT record.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 21 May 2014 7:36 am

Paul Honeycutt wrote:My acoustic lap steel is a '60's Harmoney Sovereign that has an extension nut and soundhole pickup. I have it in open D using medium gauge Elixers. I've had no problems. It needed a neck set when I got it so it only cost me $125. It really sounds good.

And you shouldn't have a problem tuned to Open D with the typical string gauges used for that tuning, people tune roundneck guitars for "upright" playing to D every day. And when they tune to Open G for upright playing, this is why the the 5th string G and 6th string D are pitched lower than the 5th string B and 6th string G of high bass dobro Open G tuning.

Still, the most popular tuning for dobro is high bass open G. The overwhelming majority of learning materials are in that tuning.

When I started out on dobro in 1976 I first had it tuned to Open A, the Brother Oswald tuning, which was the first tuning I had learned at age 9 or 10 as a lap steel student.

The first thing my dobro teacher (a rarity in those days!) did where I was taking lessons in San Jose at Guitar Showcase was to walk me up to the front of the store where I bought a set of Dobro brand strings (.016-.056) and then he tuned the guitar to G. That teacher was Tom Webb, a guy some forum members knew but hasn't been seen or heard from in decades.

He said, "this is the tuning you want."

Tuning that .056 6th string up to G can put a lot of stress on a roundneck guitar.

Steve Branscom · Post by **Steve Branscom** » 21 May 2014 8:32 am

As an aside Gold Tone sends its weissenborns out in D tuning. They specifically say that tuning it in G will void any warranty. Too much stress on the neck.

Here's a solution. Just buy an old Oahu squareneck on ebay. You can always find them for under $200. That's got to be cheaper and better than going for a roundneck and a nut extender. You can always get rid of the Oahu for $150 or so later on if you don't want to continue with lap steel or dobro.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 21 May 2014 9:34 am

Daniel earlier committed to buying a cheap squareneck reso but he hasn't been back on the thread to apprise us of his progress.

Steve, you and I generally agree on most things, and I strongly agree with avoiding the whole roundneck-with-nut-extender business, but I'm of the mind that if one wants to take up lap-style resonator guitar, they should get a lap style resonator guitar. Don't get an old Oahu, Harmony, Kay, etc. squareneck flattop, go right to the reso.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 22 May 2014 9:32 am

Howard Parker wrote:
Alan Brookes wrote: forget everything they tell you about what a guitar will stand, because it's nonsense.
Damn...

32 years of experience down the drain. I am devastated. Flashbacks of those guitars on the bench. Restoration on classic 175's & 206's. All of those builds.

The sob stories. Regals, Flinthills, Rogues, Fenders, Goldtones, Scheerhorns, Taylors and a host of others.

Paul & I are getting together soon to see where we go from here.

Life no longer has meaning.

I have no words.

I truly empathise. Next time I'm in your area I'll bring a bottle round.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 22 May 2014 9:39 am

Daniel Fairman wrote:Hello, had a quick question: I was considering buying a cheaper accoustic and putting the estension nut on it to make a cheap dobro to play around on. I have heard from one site that this could cause extra stress on the neck of the guitar. If not is it safe to do this on any electric or accoustic 6 string guitar? Thanks. Dan

Dan, an extension nut (usually referred to as a "nut riser") is just a little piece of metal that you slip over the original nut to raise the strings. I have a box full of them. It only raises the strings by a couple of millimetres, so it has hardly any effect on the angle of the strings to the machine tuners. Heightening the strings is not going to change the tension on the instrument. Changing the tuning to open G will change the tension on the instrument, but so does playing an instrument in any tuning other than standard, and no-one worries about that. Hey, the Hipshot Trilogy is purposely made to change the string tensions, and any tremolo arm will change the tensions drastically as soon as you push down on it.

If you're really worried about string tension, just change the gauge of strings. People slip nut risers on and off instruments all the time with no concerns at all.

Paul Seager · Post by **Paul Seager** » 22 May 2014 10:38 am

A few years back, when in the US and the $ was down against the â‚¬, I bought a Washburn travel guitar, which at the time wasn't available in Europe. Its crap and the neck started to twist (not bow) so that the b & e strings sounded awfully out of tune. The guitar doesn't have a truss rod either so it was $130 bucks wasted.

So I bought a string raiser, tuned it to C6 (yes much higher than open G) and it was fine except the scale length was a little too long and the string spacing too close to play Hawaiian slants.

For the last couple of months its been my pseudo Dobro, tuned open G, using a std set of bronze guitar strings (wound 3rd) but I can't remember the individual gauges. No side affects at all.

\ Paul

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Does adding an extension nut affect the neck of a...

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