Vertical Knee Lever Tuning Question (B to A#)

[Jim DeTore]

Hi, long time board reader and steel newbie, go easy! I searched for this specific topic but didn't see it, might have missed it.

Just graduated recently to a Mullen discovery with 5 knee levers, emmons copedent, from an old shobud maverick that I played for many years. Ah sweet freedom! Love all the additional possibilities. It's a beautiful new world.

My question is about tuning for the vertical knee lever. The change I have found most immediately useful to me for this lever is the major to minor chord switch with the a and b pedals engaged. The issue I have is that when I tune the vertical lever to work for this change, it is very sharp when it is used without the pedals engaged....I don't get the A#, I get a slightly lower B tone.

Is this just physics or is there something obvious that I am missing in the mechanics of tuning the guitar. Or, is there some tuning compromise that I can make that's close enough to keep the vertical lever working in tune whether the foot pedals are engaged or not?

Thanks folks!

Jim

[Howard Steinberg]

You are dealing with a split on the 5th and 10th string. You need to use the split tuning screw at the end of the changer to tune these strings with the pedals and lever engaged. I'm not sure if the Discovery has this feature

The lever used by itself will give you a (2) 9th chord (nice for playing Sweet Dreams). If you lower the 6th string a whole step, it moves nicely to a 7th chord. It's a very useful lever in terms of chords and soloing.

[Les Cargill]

I think that's all you get.

Pedal A pulls string 5 up to C#, then this pulls against that. That's two pretty different tensions but you're limited to one displacement for both.

You can also 1) release A&B 2) lower E's and 3) slide up one fret to get the same basic thing. I think it's slightly different but not much. For a grip from 8 to 3, only 7 is different ( ignoring 9,10, 1&2 ).

So if B->A# ( no pedals ) is more important, then tune to that and use the E lower for the minor. If you want the minors with A&B down, then tune to that.

This lever can also provide a dom7 ( or IIIminor - Db major to F minor ) when F & A are engaged. A only, it makes a nice V-aug chord that resolves to the F+A when you release it and engage the F at the same time.

[Richard Sinkler]

It looks as though he can use the "extra rod" method of tuning the split. If he does a search on split tuning, he will find a lot of discussion on the subject. But, normally on a split, the lower by itself usually ends up being flat. He mentions it is sharp. I don't know if a split tuner could help that.

[Lane Gray]

Ask Mike Mantey if splits are part of the Discovery.
The reason it works that way is that a tighter string takes a greater pull to move 100 cents (a full fret) than a slacker string. Therefore, from C# to C (the split) takes more finger travel than from B to A#, so if the C is in tune, the A# will be flat. This isn't the guitar, it's the physics of wires at tension.
The "second rod" method works by adding a raise to the knee lever that lowers the string, so that the lower pulls it down to C when the A pedal is engaged, and then when you release the pedal, the lower pulls itself short for the A#.

[Larry Bressington]

Half A pedal with B pedal is best option for a minor in the pedals down position, or slide up one fret lower Es...

The rod method is the only one I'm aware of on the discovery, I have the same guitar. I preferred to lower strings three and six on that lever, offering a nice minor at the first position (no pedals) no splits required... It has two advantages, one being that you can get the minor without having to jump the B&C pedals and slide back two frets, and it works very well in the lower registers where you run out of frets ala Fm, also allowing the lower strings to be part of the chord, delicious and colorful minors having so many grips to choose from same as the major chord.

This lever brings up very much controversy.

[Howard Steinberg]

I agree with Larry regarding the half (A) pedal for a minor chord. Far less to deal with to get the same change. It takes a little time to be able to get the half step consistently but it comes.

[Richard Sinkler]

I half pedal also, but rarely for that minor. There are so many better minor chords available. If I need that minor, I just use the lever that flats the E's and move up one fret. I half pedal mainly for the augmented chord in the no pedals position. At one time, I had my 4th pedal set up to lower to Bb with a split. I play Day style, so my A pedal was pedal #3 and I could hit both at the same time. I even tried just raising string 5 to C, but that didn't last long.

[Lane Gray]

For minors, the E9th tuning has relative minors galore, with better adjacent scale tones. A pedal, E lowers and BC pedals (C#, G# and F# minor, respectively).
Here's one of my little thingies on minors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByJ6tGucw6k
And, since we're discussing the A# lever,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1IY1E-uKU

[Jim DeTore]

Thanks everyone who responded. A ton to think about here.

I figured it was probably a physics thing.......and not sure I want try to split tune given that the discovery can't accommodate it unless I purchase more hardware for it.....and the idea of lowering the g#'s to g instead with this lever is interesting..makes for easy intuitive minors in the first position, esp low on the neck as was mentioned.....but I do also like the dom 7th I get currently using the vertical lever with a V chord, strings 1,2 and 4, no pedals...I use that combo a lot, probably from my maverick use where I only had one knee lever...I'll have to work on that half A pedal thing, that's very hard to do....a lot to consider....thanks again!

[Ron Pruter]

Jim,
Seems like a very daunting task to understand the extra rod split thing. I've played for 50 years and just had the epiphany about two years ago. Bud Carter had something about it and then I think Jerry Roller finally got me understanding it. Basically, you have to over tighten the lower nut to get it to go down a half step when an other rod is trying to raise it. So, then when you go to lower it, and your not trying to raise it, it lowers to much. So you install an additional rod on that lower that starts to raise it at the end of that throw. You color that nut an other color to separate it from your normal tuning nuts. In the series of tuning that change, that colored nut is your last step. Man, it feels good when that change is right after living with it "out" for so long. Couldn't live without it for my style of music. Enjoy. RP

[Hans Holzherr]

All the posts dealing with ways to get the lever to accomplish two things accurately are fine and valid, but they (except one) don't address the original poster's observation that the lever by itself does not lower the B string all the way to Bb. Now, since the physics behind splits is solid, that is IMHO a strong indication that the changer fingers are not working properly, and I would first check if when the lever is pushed the raise finger is activated, too, by binding or however, preventing the expected full lower to Bb - beyond Bb, actually. Second, are pedals A and B and the vertical lever completely released before testing the B to Bb?

[Lane Gray]

Thanks for pointing that out, Hsns. I missed it the first time. I second Hans. Something ain't quite right. If the C is good, the A# should be FLAT. Look to see if the raise finger is coming along for the ride: you might have too much tension on the return spring.

[Richard Sinkler]

For minors, the E9th tuning has relative minors galore, with better adjacent scale tones. A pedal, E lowers and BC pedals (C#, G# and F# minor, respectively).
Here's one of my little thingies on minors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByJ6tGucw6k
And, since we're discussing the A# lever,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1IY1E-uKU

Those adjacent scale tones are the reason I prefer all the other minor positions rather than lower the G#'s to G. On my very first guitar, an S10 ZB w/ 5p and 5k, one of the pedals lowered 3 and 6 to G, and I almost never used it. But, a lot of players like the change, especially guitar players who take up the steel guitar as it parallels the major to minor move on the 6 string.

and it works very well in the lower registers where you run out of frets ala Fm

You really don't start to "run out" of frets for minors. In fact, you can get minors below the Em you would get at the nut. With the A pedal minor you get your Fm at fret 4, Em at 3, D#m at 2, Dm at 1, and C#m open. What you lose on the lower strings (I think you only lose the 10 string), you gain in the adjacent scale tones that Lane brought up.

[Larry Bressington]

Snagging a minor at any location is not the problem, it's when you're sliding for one to the other where the lever comes in handy. F minor, strings 10/8/5/6 lower strings 3/6 fret 1, you get the full chord.

At that position you can also use all the same strings as you would for major...allowing yourself to play the complete scale, only this time in minor form

I agree it's not required lever, and I don't have it on my current setup, I do miss it from time to time...in the meantime I back the bar up one fret, raise the Es and half pedal the A pedal if sliding to and fro and want the full minor.

Ex...F#m at fret 5 A pedal strings 8/6/5 or 10/8/6 slide down to fret 1 raise the Es and half A pedal. It's a bit tricky but it works good once you get it down, mostly when slick sliding.

[Dick Sexton]

Info from Mullin down the thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ght=splits

[Jim DeTore]

Thanks Dick, yes..helpful! And thanks to everyone else, learning a ton here...the vertical knee lever is apparently a rich topic of discussion!

[Ron Pruter]

Jim,
Are you 100% sure it is SHARP when you use the lever alone and not FLAT?

[Jim DeTore]

I'm sorry, the last poster, and some before are, in fact, correct...I just checked again, and the note with the pedals engaged is FLAT, not SHARP. Damn newbies! :roll

So to be clear (for a change) if the vertical lever is engaged with no pedals....I can tune the B string open, and also the B to go to A# with vertical lever engaged.....but when I then engage a and b pedals to get the IV chord, and I again engage the vertical lever.....I don't get the minor third, I get a note that is flat to that. So it sounds like I need a split tuning solution or I have to live with it....maybe the split isn't so bad...I'll research some more and ask the Mullen folks about it. Thanks again all.. very helpful.

[Lane Gray]

Here's 4 possible suggestions:
1: learn to half-pedal the C note, tuning the the lever to A#.
2: possibly re-rod the 10th string to be shorter and stiffer, so that the pedal picks up 10 when 5 hits C.

3: the Discovery has the bar across the ens of the changer: drill and tap it out and have the split.

4: you already have the bellcrank on the lever, so the only thing you need to order is rod and nut.