No finger picks

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 2 Dec 2003 5:17 pm

Having played finger style guitar for twenty + years on a home made six string w/built-in compressor, I had no trouble getting the proper balance between thumbpick and bare fingers with respect to volume, clarity and bite.

Along came a B-Bender which I started playing, and at first that balance was horrible, as I was not using any compression. A year of picking harder with my fingers later, the balance is fine.

So I tried it on steel; I'd done this a few times over the years with unacceptable results, but this time it worked! My first gig without them went perfectly well; no one noticed anything missing. I was able to get by wthout them - evidence of a merciful God, if you ask me. I have been set free. Those picks had always been my enemy, making me feel like Edward Scissorhands trying to play steel.

Any others out there doing it without fingerpicks?

Will Yardley · Post by **Will Yardley** » 2 Dec 2003 5:25 pm

Any others out there doing it without fingerpicks?

/delurk - been reading the forum for a while, but this is my first "real" post.

You might want to check the archives - there are some old posts about Kim Deschamps (steel player on a couple early Cowboy Junkies albums, including "The Trinity Session") - he apparently never uses fingerpicks.
http://www.steelguitar.com/webpix/playpix/kimdeschamps.html

He gets a gorgeous tone on "The Trinity Session" (that album was recorded in a large church with one microphone, which I'm sure didn't hurt the sound either....).

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 2 Dec 2003 10:04 pm

I'm trying to learn with and without. I play without picks until my fingertips get sore (or I get bored) and then switch to playing with picks. I'm finding that volume isn't the biggest problem, but speed and timing are. I play with the fleshy part of the finger, not the nail, so getting a consistent attack is a bit tricky. My fingers don't slide off the strings with the same ease and "snap" as when playing with picks, making the speedier stuff more challenging.

One thing I've noticed, though, is that playing without picks has actually helped my playing WITH picks. It's taught me a lot about hand position, since without picks my hand is free to take its most natural position without the picks interfering. Then I can transfer that information to when I'm playing with picks, making it more comfortable.

-Travis

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 3 Dec 2003 3:47 am

Travis,

Interesting. Soreness was not much of a problem for me even though I, too, use the fleshy part and not the nails; unlike as in your case, my speed increased because the picks were no longer in my way, in my face, slowing me down.

I'd consider taking your lead and seeing if anything is different with the picks back on, but after having tried just about every kind that have come along over the years, I have yet to find any I like. I suspect, that the "if it ain't broke......" consideration is going to prevail.

David

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 3 Dec 2003 3:49 am

Travis,

Please refrain from using the term "sore fingers". Your body will fatigue long before your fingers indicate a need to back off a bit from hours of practice. I've played steel for a third of a lifetime, using the four fingers grab to facilitate chordal arrangements. Speed picking is no problem. Nature never intended to create the discomfort commonly experienced by "donning the metal picks". I've scrutinized the most advanced steel guitarists of this decade, and one of their noteworthy hang-ups, is the obvious poking of thumb against index and middle finger, between rests, to force the fingerpicks against the first knuckle. For that reason, and many others, I'm so thankful for having the good sense to resist the popular belief that "picks are better".

Bill H.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 3 Dec 2003 5:57 am

i'm not resisting any. i happen to play mostly without picks. BUT, i hear the diff in sound and clarity when i use picks.
so i force myself to play w: picks as well.
Lionel Wendling told me the last time we talked about this subject
"that it is better to know how to play w: picks even if one plays without them / than to play w: no picks and be called to play w: them (and not know how)."

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 03 December 2003 at 05:57 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 3 Dec 2003 7:06 am

I find my pick blocking gets better with picks if I first start blocking practice without picks. I play with, without and sometimes just a thumb pick. I like C6 without picks. I see no reason not to know all possible techniques.

The two things I did notice most is,
I kill the C6 strings much faster when I play without picks.
And that I prefer picks on E9, because I kill my fingers faster on it without them..

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 3 Dec 2003 8:29 am

It shouldn't require more than a few practice sessions with metallic finger picks to ascertain that the "feel" of strings, so commonly associated with flamenco style playing, is missing. The barrier created between the fingertips and the surface of the strings could be likened to a form of a subtle notion, adapted, before positive trial measures were taken into account.
Should I be occasioned to use metal picks, the very least of my expectations, would be to insist that the picks be made from sterling silver. At least there would be the comfort of knowing that the precious silver would protect my fingers.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 03 December 2003 at 10:58 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Dec 2003 12:05 pm

For the first few years I never used picks, then I saw Lloyd Green, and I realised straight away that to achieve any sort of tone I had to use picks. I'll never go back to picking 'bareback'.

Donald Davis · Post by **Donald Davis** » 3 Dec 2003 2:15 pm

I have only been playing PSG about six months, but this comes after playing fingerstyle guitar for about 30 years. Though nearly all modern classical guitarists play with their fingernails for volume, some of the originators of the technique prefered the tone from the flesh. I am enjoying playing the steel with my fingers and not encountering any finger discomfort. The only difference that I see in picks would be could be related to volume and in brightness, both of which can be solved by proper amp settings. However, I am really green (still learning Green's riffs on Sweetheart of the Rodeo) and haven't played in public yet.

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 3 Dec 2003 2:28 pm

Aside from tone, which is defintely affected, the only real advantage of using picks for me has been a quicker and cleaner assimilation to the PSG's narrow string spacing... Those metal and plastic extensions just seem easier to get into the spaces than my crummy nails and clammy fingertips.

But having heard and talked to fellow Austinite Kim D. several times, I can tell you there's definitely no handicap associated with "sans picks" approach - if it works, go for it! [This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 03 December 2003 at 02:30 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 3 Dec 2003 3:01 pm

Bill, perhaps you'd prefer I call them "blistered" fingers rather than "sore" fingers. Fair enough--that might have been unclear.

I should also mention that I use a thumbpick. I tried without but just couldn't get it to work--the hand position without the thumbpick is just too awkward for me, and the bass notes always sounded muffled.

I'm sure it's possible to get the speed and timing up to par without fingerpicks, I'm just not there yet.

One other note. Leo Kottke (who plays bare fingered with the fleshy part of the fingertips) said that he partially traces his (now solved) problem with tendonitis to the fingerpicks. His claim was that the speed of the fingerpicks was unnatural--it allowed him to push past his limit and to pick harder than his body was really ready to. If you've heard early Leo Kottke you'll know why that could have been a problem for him (I'm not sure that steel guitarists would have the same problem, by and large). He said that fingerpicks make it easier to do a few things, but that the benefits from playing without easily outweigh those advantages. If you've heard his recent stuff you'll see that his speed and timing are clearly not an issue. Don't know if I totally agree with his tendonitis claim, but it's food for thought, anyways.

-Travis

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 3 Dec 2003 3:42 pm

Travis,

A thumb pick is a must!! Never in my life have I so much as hinted otherwise. Sure, the fingers will blister, if they have been subjected to the friction of wound strings. The basic premise is to shape the fingernails accordingly. It would be well worth the time and effort to do a search on the masters of finger style playing. There is literature available, stressing the importance of proper length, and care of the fingernails. Any inadvertent attempt to belittle the great masters of the world, who methodically play without picks, is indeed lacking in discernment. Many steel guitarists agree that it is possible to entertain without the use of finger picks.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 04 December 2003 at 02:20 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 3 Dec 2003 11:39 pm

Travis,

When I referred to "the great masters of the world", I had in mind, the Spanish guitarists, such as C. Atkins, or A. Segovia. (Sp.).
Who would have even considered, walking up to either of those remarkable geniuses, back in the 60's, and suggest to them, that they should wear finger picks?

The same holds true with those who play steel guitars. My point in all of this is that, pros and cons are simply too easy to revert to. It isn't difficult to turn a mouse trap into a 50 pound bear trap, or "A mountain out of mole hill". Nothing can be fairly decided upon in either case, until all parties associated with the "finger picking groups", have been heard from. Please keep in mind, that I would never, under any circumstances, discredit the majority of steel guitarists, who have adapted the fingerpicks. This is by far, no attempt to dissuade the great pickers, mainly from Tennessee, Texas, California, and other areas, such as Missouri, New England, or the deep south, from using finger picks. It is merely a strong defensive line, drawn for the purpose of relating great successes experienced, without the use of metal finger picks.

Bill H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Dec 2003 3:37 pm

Another POV...

Picks do take some getting used to. But then again, so does a bar, pedals, and knee levers, etc., etc.. The right pick, properly shaped, will become as natural as "no pick" on your fingers. (I often walk off stage forgetting mine are still on.)

No one says you have to wear finger-picks, but I'd guess better than 95% of all steel players do.

Must be a good reason, don't you think?

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 4 Dec 2003 7:51 pm

Donny,

You are fortunate to be able to wear and use them transparently, but I guess my results varied. After almost 30 years I never got used to them, and believe me, I tried them all. Maybe it's because I've played guitar fingerstyle without them for much longer.

I played my first gig on steel without them last Friday night; it was a treat. Last night we cut a demo tape. The sound worked for me and the rest of the band.

I will never go back.

Very few fingerpickers use picks, and yet manage quite well. I don't see why it should have been any different with the steel, but I don't deny that it is.

Tradition is the only answer that comes to mind, or maybe the fact that they all simply followed the leader.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Dec 2003 8:20 pm

With fingerpicks you can pick harder, which gives the string more vibration, which allows the note to sustain longer. If sustain is important to you, you should learn to use fingerpicks.

The tone of flesh or nail against the string is pleasant, but the note is not as loud and fades to silence more quickly. The comparison to Atkins and Segovia is irrelevant because they did not play a sustaining instrument.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 4 Dec 2003 8:39 pm

Atkins once made the statement that if he could start all over he would not have used the thumbpick.

The precious few things I can play on steel are with either nails or Alaska picks which fit over the top of the finger. They feel great and sound great.

For the thumb pick, try the Herco pick that looks like a guitar pick. It can be filed down to fit your style and gives a good sound with the feel of a straight guitar pick. You can even turn your wrist a little and pick just like standard guitar. You can even play surf music on steel ala Dick Dale with this pick!

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 4 Dec 2003 8:58 pm

Bobby,

Whatever works for you and others is fine with me. There's nothing wrong with many different approaches.

But know that I can pick pretty damn hard when I have to and don't need more sustain or bite than I get. I've got 600 watts, treble and presence controls, a volume pedal and a Millennium. I am not sustain challenged.

I will try playing my other MSA to see if I get by as well without them. It may be that the sustain of the Millennium is what is making the difference.

Bill,

I am lost without a thumbpick and amazed that anyone can get solid notes without one, but yet some do. I love the herco picks you mentioned. Before they came along I used to make my own hybrids out of regular guitar picks and those clunky, inelegant thumbpicks. [This message was edited by David Deratany on 04 December 2003 at 09:12 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 4 Dec 2003 11:42 pm

Bobby Lee,

The case of C. Atkins versus "sustain" is relevant to this topic. He created more excitement among super pickers, during the '50's and '60's than all others combined. He was a master of sustain, and his thumb picking style still remains unchallenged today. The fingernails are equal to the thumb pick you use in producing sustain, due to a texture quite the same as the pick. I can produce a thunderous sustain with a thumb pick and 4 fingernails. My highs will curl your hair!! Just to cite an example of the negative side of fingerpicks, back in the eighties a well known distributor of picks, sold picks that were called "lifetime picks". After a short period of time, the "special" plating would break away, leaving rough edges to tear at the strings. It was a case of good intentions on the part of the distributor, and he cheerfully replaced them with better grade picks. You could call that "irrelevant", if you prefer, but I'm hanging with the relevancies, as I once again, allude to the classic superpickers, whose dependence on fingernails is well known.

Bill H.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Dec 2003 9:37 am

For the record, my "Diatonic Adventures" album was recorded without fingerpicks (I did use a thumb pick, though). I am very much aware of the differences.

Either technique produces valid music, but fingerpicks are required to get the traditional pedal steel sound. I hesitate to say that this is not simply my opinion. I believe it to be a fact.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 5 Dec 2003 12:37 pm

I thought I was the only one who discovered/used the Herco thumb pick. After playing standard guitar for 30+ years, it offers the advantages of a flat pick, yet frees up the index finger for steel pick'in. If one can build calluses on your right hand picking fingers (comparable to the calluses that standard guitar players have on their left hand fingers) you can come very close to matching the sound produced by finger picks.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 5 Dec 2003 4:31 pm

Bare fingers/thumb gives you a bit of the Wes Montgomery tone- maybe not so great for E9 but quite nice of the chord solo stuff on C6th!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Dec 2003 3:13 am

I like to play with my fingers for the feel, but if I'm playing rapid alternating thumb/middle finger passages the tone of the bare finger is too different than the tone of the thumbpick for my tastes. I use fingerpicks to play fast for this reason, not because I think they have an inherently faster release.