How to learn when the copedants are so different?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 29 Apr 2014 4:05 pm

I understand what Lane is saying. If you are in the no pedals position (say the 12th fret key of E), pressing the A & B Pedals give you an A chord (IV chord), and you can rock on and off the A pedal for those "country" sounding licks, or as I call it, "movement".

If you are using the A & B pedals position as your I chord, then you could use your A pedal with the lever that raises your E strings (F lever?) to get to a IV chord.

The E lowers combined with the 6th string lower (to F#), gives you the 5 chord to the E chord in the no pedals position.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 29 Apr 2014 5:13 pm

Well paraphrased, Richard.
Since I managed to confuse B0b, I know I'll have to phrase it better, or perhaps draw a chart in the morning when I get off work.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 30 Apr 2014 5:08 am

OK, I've had some time to put this another way (B0b, I appreciate it when someone tells me I made no sense. Thanks)
The most common positions to play a song are:
with A&B pedals down for 1, moving around near it for the rest of the chords, and;
With no pedals as 1, moving around as needed.
Here is a vastly simplified chord use, I won't call it a chart. I strongly recommend getting Patricia's chart for more in-depth info. Let's assume key of G for this discussion (move it around on your own)

Playing with no pedals as root, your chords will be found most easily as follows:
I: 3rd fret
ii: either 1st fret with Es lowered (this is my favorite minor chord form on the E9th neck) or 3rd fret B&C
iii: 3rd fret with Es lowered or 5th fret B&C
IV: 3rd fret A&B (or 1st fret Es lowered with B pedal if our want C7)
V: 3rd fret Es lowered with B pedal or 5th fret AB
vi: 3rd fret A pedal

Using the AB as I, you have
I: 10th fret AB
ii: 8th fret A pedal
iii: 10th fret A pedal
IV: either 8th fret open or 11th fret A pedal and Es raised (I don't use this much because the adjacent strings don't work much melodically with it, and it kinda sounds wonky)
V: 10th fret no pedals
vi: either 8 with Es lowered or 10 BC.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 1 May 2014 3:58 pm

I'd be inclined start with three pedals and one knee for a while (Es lowered) and concentrate on hand technique... There's a world of hurt laying right there

Buck Rodgers · Post by **Buck Rodgers** » 1 May 2014 4:50 pm

Great explanation for us rookies, Lane. In fact, I copied it to a word document and printed it for on my music stand. Thanx much.
Buck

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 1 May 2014 7:22 pm

Larry Bressington wrote:I'd be inclined start with three pedals and one knee for a while (Es lowered) and concentrate on hand technique... There's a world of hurt laying right there

I 100% disagree with this statement. Would you tell someone learning drive a car with a manual transmission to only learn to put it in first gear and drive around for a while like that before learning how to shift into other gears? While it is important to work on hand techniques, it will be more rewarding to a new player to be able to start making the music hears. I think not learning to use the tools you have will actually make your learning process take a lot longer than it should and possibly discourage the new player.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 May 2014 2:58 am

I agree with Richard. BUT I do like how the Winston Keith book starts with just the one, adding others later.
We don't tell aspiring guitarists to start on a balalaika, with its less confusing string count.
As soon as the brain can handle 1, it can handle 5.
I'd say a cluster can wait, as those ARE confusing.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 2 May 2014 3:04 am

bad analogy Richard - you assume as soon as someone can put a car in 1st they are ready for the LA freeway...i'm sure that would be fatal..for someone.

when i first started on a Marlen student 3x1, (in the pre-internet/forum days) i tried in vain to copy licks and figured i couldn't get all those because I played a student set up. i had the Winston book and would be confounded by all the different copedants in the book...ah! thats how they must do it. so i sold my student model after a year for a loaded D-10 (i didn't even know what the C6 was). i eventually found a good player and took all my recordings of licks i wanted to learn (Sweetheart of the Rodeo, Live at Panther Hall, Live at Carnegie Hall, etc) over to my lesson and guess what - just about every lick i thought i couldn't get on my student model was right there the entire time...i just didn't have the knowledge to use them.

also, i got my old Bud Permanent a few years ago after playing a fully loaded Emmons D-10 LLII. you know the Perm is a primitive set-up and i think i learned more about the steel guitar from going back and being forced to think about things with a different mindset than i ever did by adding more knees

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 2 May 2014 5:34 am

I would spend the first year of learning nothing but major scales,minor scales, harmony scale and all the chord grips That are typical with the ABC pedals and the Es lowered. The right-hand alone is a learning curve all by itself and also playing 10 string guitar is a major intimidater.

Stated above is a huge learning curve but can get you playing along with most classics and getting all those sounds and licks that generally don't require all those additional levers, yes you will need them later on but if you have them too early you will miss the forest for the trees.

Use Tab as a second learning method and concentrate on removing licks from CD,s etc allowing your ear to train and extracts sounds not by sight but by sound as this will sharpen your instincts early... Otherwise you will just become Tab dependent for everything you need to be able to play.

Tuning... Tune open strings, raises and lowers , to the straight 440 for now, yes you want to sweeten some as time goes by but this will take all the confusion out of tuning... There are 10,000 threads on the Internet on how to tune a steel guitar. Dissect each topic over time, absorbing, learning and experimenting creating your opinion.

Removing all these intimidating factors can help one through the chaos of this beautiful world of pedal steel guitar.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 2 May 2014 9:25 am

I didn't say anything about starting on a "loaded" guitar. The 3 standard pedals and what have become the 3 standard knee levers is what I feel a beginner should start on. If the person has the will to put in the practice time, he can learn the scales, grips, blocking, pedal and lever usage, at the same time. I and several others I know went this route and all ended up good players, and were out playing in very short times. Had I taken the route Larry suggested, I probably would have quit in less than a year.

But, each player has to decide for themselves what they can or cannot handle. Some will not have what it takes to learn using anyone's recommendations.

I think, and it is only my opinion, if you have the tools at hand, learn how to use them. I think it is bad advice to tell someone to ignore levers on their guitars. If I couldn't have handled that, well, maybe the PSG is not for me.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 2 May 2014 9:30 am

bad analogy Richard - you assume as soon as someone can put a car in 1st they are ready for the LA freeway...i'm sure that would be fatal..for someone.

Show me where I said anything about driving on a freeway. You could feasibly drive around town in first gear. Hell, the transmission in my truck went south on me and I had to drive home from a gig about 25 - 30 miles from home, stuck in first gear, ON THE FREEWAY. I made it home OK. Although my truck is an automatic, the result was the same.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 2 May 2014 10:54 am

Some of the greatest players in the world went the route I suggested, that's where I learned it... Tell Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons that they need three or four levers to get started....

And not to change the subject but if you're really struggle learning to play the pedal steel guitar , and which ( 90% of players give up )you can also remove strings 9 and 10 as a Band-Aid to get you through and get the wheels spinning... Once you get out of the hole up and running then you can go after it, but most self taught students give up before they get out of the hole!!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 May 2014 1:09 pm

I agree with Richard about a 3+3 copedent for beginners. The 4th knee lever is by no means a standard, and 3+3 is complete without being overwhelming.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 May 2014 3:20 pm

Learn what the levers do by learning them one at a time. Use the floor pedals and just one lever for a few weeks. Then, when you have that ones function down, use another lever for a couple of weeks, etc., etc.

Trying to learn to use four levers at once can be very frustrating. It's far easier if you slow down, and take them on one at a time!

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 2 May 2014 4:39 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:Learn what the levers do by learning them one at a time. Use the floor pedals and just one lever for a few weeks. Then, when you have that ones function down, use another lever for a couple of weeks, etc., etc.

Trying to learn to use four levers at once can be very frustrating. It's far easier if you slow down, and take them on one at a time!

I completely agree. For a time, I wouldn't buy a pedal steel because I let the pedals and knee levers scare me. And then I thought 'Well...I don't have to learn all of them in one night.' So, I bought one with 3 pedals and 5 knee levers. The salesman at the store showed me how to take it apart and pack it up, and told me how to put it together when I got home. After putting it together, I started with A and B pedals and the E lower knee lever and ignored everything else....for the moment. A lot of times, you can go farther by going a little slower.

Mitch

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 May 2014 7:50 pm

Well, I think that if you're going to take that "one lever at a time" approach, the E raise (to F) should be first, then the second string lower to D, then the E lower.

I have a guitar with 2+1, and the knee lever raises both E's. I wouldn't have it any other way. Else I'd be doing too many bar slants.

The first lesson I give is I IV V in G:
[tab] I IV V I IV V I IV V I
fret&pedals: 3 3AB 5AB 6AF 8 10 10AB 11AF 13AF 15
[/tab]
Can't do that without the F lever.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 May 2014 8:44 pm

Sure you can. He drops 6. Instead of 6AF, 8 with Es lowered and 6 lowered. Which doesn't sound as janky anyway (since most guitars have a wonky C#-G# fifth).
And if you let go of the lever and add the B pedal, you turn the 5 tone to 7.

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 2 May 2014 9:10 pm

b0b,

I started with the E lower lever because it made it easy for me to get the I, IV, and V (V7th) in G at the 3rd fret without having to moving the bar. Once I did this, I realized that with the E lower lever, I could get the I, IV, and V (V7th) at any fret on the guitar. I thought I had climbed a mountain.

Keep in mind that I was a brand spankin' new player that only moments before, had learned how to put a steel guitar together and stand it up on the floor. Those were fun and exciting days for me.

Mitch

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 2 May 2014 9:32 pm

The lever you learn first will be the one you use most...pick wisely....

I'm only half joking - no smiley for that.

Mitch Ellis · Post by **Mitch Ellis** » 2 May 2014 9:40 pm

Tom Gorr wrote:The lever you learn first will be the one you use most...pick wisely....

In my case, that's very true.

It's also great advise.

Mitch

Bill Davison · Post by **Bill Davison** » 8 May 2014 6:00 pm

Not to act stuped or ask a stuped question, but what is the meaning of these:
V
Vi
iii
Etc.
I see these in a lot of posts and would like to know the meaning of them.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 8 May 2014 6:35 pm

Tab can be figured out with your copedent easily. Your set up is identical to my Encore. The only lever that is not commonly seen in old tab and old learning material is our RKL. But that RKL is actually very common today. Your RKR is very common too both in function and location. It's been around for a long time. Lots of tab and learning material has that lever too. I remember the one good thing about my first D10 was that it was an old Fender and I didn't connect the knee levers for awhile. I spent a lot of time just on the pedals. I then hooked up the 2 knee levers and went from there. As others have mentioned, there is a lot to learn just from the pedals and then the E levers will keep you busy for a very long time with lots of learning material available.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 8 May 2014 6:35 pm

When Roman numerals, they're the chords in the intended progression. Upper case, Major, lower case, minor. If you're in G
I=G
ii=Am
iii=BM
IV=C
V=D
vi=Em

In E
I=E
ii=F#m
iii=G#m
IV=A
V=B
vi=C#

It's handier to discuss numbers, since the relationships don't change

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 8 May 2014 8:01 pm

Lane your example in the key of E is off. Looks like just a couple of typos. F# minor is the ii, G# minor is iii.

Paul Arntson · Post by **Paul Arntson** » 8 May 2014 9:35 pm

Back to the original post, my advice is just to pick a copedant from somebody you admire and learn it thoroughly. Changing stuff around slows the learning process. I am a poster child for that affliction.