True melody ,,V,,generic

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 27 Nov 2003 6:49 am

... we all remain students even when we have pro gigs ...

Reminds me of one of the tracks on the Circle II album where someone says, before the music starts, "is this practise?", and John Denver replies "they're all practise".

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 27 Nov 2003 7:19 am

Bob C.,

Many years ago I was listening to a band I thought was great. It was playing some exceptional stuff. The audience was non plussed and couldn't have cared less. Then the band played Boni Maroni (sp?) and the audience went absolutely wild. Right then and there I decided that the audience doesn't have a clue as to what the good suff is. Since then, I have played to suit myself. I don't mean to disparage that song; it has its place in the halls of music, but it is not what I would call particularly noteworthy.

I suppose if I never got any calls for work I might need to reconsider and start pandering to the public, but fortunately that hasn't been the case. Not that I am one, but no great artist ever gave a damn about what the public thinks or likes. He does what he does and and takes his chances in the marketplace.

I'll put on my protective gear now

[This message was edited by David Deratany on 27 November 2003 at 08:37 AM.]

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 27 Nov 2003 9:33 am

David, the first band I played in (standard guitar) we did mostly Big Band music. I would do some c/w. The leader of this band was one of my old school teachers. He had played his way through school and knew how to handle a crowd.

We would play differant beats and types of songs until they started dancing. And we did that all night long. Best lesson I ever learned.

Bob

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 27 Nov 2003 11:25 am

I learned to play steel in a very relaxed, 5-nights-a-week bar gig. I didn't know any of the tunes when I started, and the job went like this: <ul>[*]The bandleader turned to me and sang the intro he wanted me to play: "Da dum de dum da da dum"</li>[*]I played the intro</li>[*]He sang the the verse and chorus, or verse verse bridge verse.</li>[*]Time for the solo. I was expected to have memorized the melody, and to play it on steel.</li>[*]He finished the song and I put a Sears Roebuck ending on it.</li>[/list]Of course there were lots of exceptions, but that was the standard formula for standard country songs. I learned my way around the neck pretty darn well that first year on the job!

To this day, my "default mode" for soloing on tunes that I don't know well is to play the melody. It's great to have some whiz-bang part arranged, but just filling the space with generic licks doesn't cut it for me. Play the melody or something at least as good as the melody - that's my approach.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 27 November 2003 at 11:26 AM.]

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 27 Nov 2003 3:41 pm

During the course of my 43 years of playing guitar and maybe 30 playing steel, there have been occasional periods of up to a couple of years or so when I didn't play at all. I would come to lament the loss of my skills and licks and flash and dazzle and would get bummed out thinking I would never get any of it back.

But upon returning to play, I would find I was futher along from where I had left off, much further along. It seems that during those times I would forget the way I played everything. It's not that I played everything the same all the time..I never did that, but the approach, the mentality was the same.

The hiatus erased my memory banks full of "stuff" and all I was left with was the song- the melody - the music, and that became what I played. Up until that time I had always played convenient generic chord and position based stuff, not what was in my head. I couldn't do that. In fact, it never occurred to me to do that.

At first it was difficult trying to find the notes that were in my head, but over time I got better at it. I'm not up to 100% yet, but I don't feel helpless and inept anymore. My default mode has been to play the song, but by that I don't mean a single note melody line. I may drift far away from that, but I am always playing the song. I don't even think I know how to do it the old way. Besides, it's soooo easy now, and everything -well almost everything, I play is different.

My wife never liked my playing ...too many notes, too little music, but now loves it, and I can see why. I am playing music. I must be getting old

[This message was edited by David Deratany on 27 November 2003 at 04:22 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Nov 2003 7:28 pm

In today's music the drummer keeps the melody.

Cliff Oliver · Post by **Cliff Oliver** » 28 Nov 2003 2:16 pm

Being able to play the melody separates us from the animals.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 30 Nov 2003 10:24 am

Paul, have you ever had an original thought you could truly call your own?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Nov 2003 1:11 pm

Quick, everybody duck!

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 30 Nov 2003 1:36 pm

OK, this thread is about a week old. I’ve checked it two or three times each day and marveled at the various opinions expressed here on the topic of “Melody vs. Generic.” I now find that I can’t hold it in any longer, so I must respond to the question or bust! My input is, of course, only my opinion – but I think that is what this thread is all about.

I think we must, first of all, decide whether we are talking about playing a break in a song being performed by a vocalist, playing a chorus in an instrumental featuring another instrument, or playing a song as a steel guitar instrumental. The answer seems to me to vary somewhat for each of these three scenarios.

When playing a course as an interlude to a vocalist’s performance, I feel that one can “get away with” deviating somewhat from the melody – although a thread of the melody should run throughout the steel break. There are usually plenty of opportunities to enhance the melody by the transitions or “pedal morphing” from chord to chord, the dynamics applied within the break, and the myriad of other nuances that can be used to keep the melody from becoming a stale reproduction of what the vocalist just did. In this scenario playing the straight melody is less appropriate than allowing the melody to weave in and out of the steel break.

With regard to playing a steel break in an instrumental that features another instrument, the other instrument will usually have established the melody, leaving the steel with the option of deviating from the melody to whatever extent the steel player deems appropriate.

In the third scenario, playing a steel guitar instrumental, I feel that the first chorus should stick relatively close to the original melody. Throwing in a few subtle fills between the main phrases or playing a transitional run when going from one phrase to the next in the first chorus is acceptable, as long as the main melody is not lost in too many frills. Then, in the “middle choruses” one can do a little “showing off” of his or her musical prowess without too much damage to the overall performance – but even here it is a good idea to return to a few notes of the melody from time to time, just so the listener won’t forget what song is being played. The last chorus of a steel guitar instrumental should return to a reasonable facsimile of the original melody.

Most of us probably recognize that we have to keep a song recognizable to the public, but we like to exercise our right to express our feelings in our music. And, for some of us (me included) we like to throw in a few good licks from time to time – just in case another steel player is lurking somewhere in the audience. But we should be careful not to overdo it.

Signed,
The Old Philosopher

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 30 Nov 2003 2:33 pm

One thing I have been trying to do lately is emulate George Harrison's way of playing an alternative melody for a solo. Like the solo in his song "Something". Its perfect in every way but has little to do with the original melody. If I could ever play a solo even 1% as beautiful as that I would be a happy guy.

Sometimes when I play with rock bands I'll play the exact melody on one string for my solo. It cracks the rock guys up and is real easy if I can't think of anything else.

Bob
[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 30 November 2003 at 02:36 PM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 30 Nov 2003 2:48 pm

Bob,
Way to go!

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 30 Nov 2003 2:54 pm

I believe the real issue here is: are you playing the guitar, or is the guitar playing you?

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 30 Nov 2003 3:26 pm

True melody,,V,,generic is the ?

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 30 Nov 2003 9:06 pm

Ouch, I thought I was on the other forum for a minute

.

But Hoffnar, I can always count on you, buddy

.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Nov 2003 9:20 pm

Bob Hoffnar, you make an excellent point. Harrison's presentation and interpetation was genious in its feeling. Play what you feel, feel what you play.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 30 November 2003 at 09:20 PM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 30 November 2003 at 09:21 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 30 Nov 2003 9:57 pm

The thing that kills me about Harrison's playing in that solo is how there are no traces of riffs. Its pure melody.
Its a standard rock technique to play an alternet part in the solo. Often the guitar solos even have a different chord structure. I love so many of those rock guitar gods but Harrison had a way making it sound like a beautiful musical statement rather than just a great guitar solo.

Bob

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 1 Dec 2003 8:38 am

To play the melody is to copy someone elses improvisation

I always thought the melody was the song. If you don't play the melody then why bother with the song? My view is that a song is written a certain way and is meant to be sang/played along that course. Most songs could be played with various licks, runs, riffs and whatever else with the melody never being touched but after you finish what have you really played?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Dec 2003 9:38 am

The thing that kills me about Harrison's playing in that solo is how there are no traces of riffs. Its pure melody.

I get the same feeling from Chet Baker's trumpet parts. The ultimate goal of a solo is to provide an alternate melody that's as good as the original melody. If you can't do that, then an interpretation of the melody with appropriate harmonies is a good second choice.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 1 Dec 2003 3:13 pm

Someone told me a story once about a steel jam where they were really cuttin hard, each guy outdoing the next, all the speed and chops they could muster up. The competition got intense and in the heat of the insanity, Jimmy Day had his turn and to put an end to the madness, he just played the melody pure and true. It brought the house down so I hear. Some tears too.

Brad Sarno

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 1 Dec 2003 4:54 pm

Mike.....Everything that is played becomes a melody. Once a lick or solo is documented through recordings or written down on the Staff it survives as part of the composition. A good example of this would be Buddy's intro, solo, and licks in Night Life. Hard to imagine that song played differently.

The songs lyrical melody, as it is being written, is also being improvised. Sometimes chords are changed and notes are added or taken away to accomodate the lyric weeks after the first draft of the tune has taken place. I see composition as improvisation at its best.

I don't believe the word "melody" equates to simplicity. There is nothing simple about Classical or Jazz compositions and they are full of melody.

Some communicate an idea with complex melodies(Coltrane), others use simple, easy to understand phrases(Armstrong). I believe both are necessary for communicating music.

Buddy.....I believe every melodic possibility has already been played a century or so ago by the Classical masters.....As Chet said, "We all borrow from somewhere." How well that stored information fits together in a solo, song, or lick defines any players style or perceived originalty. For everything else, I believe there is only one who could boast originality in thought and I should accept his forgiveness and do my best to overcome my many shortcomings while searching for different ways to utilize the gift of music.

The answer.....I am always searching....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 01 December 2003 at 05:41 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 01 December 2003 at 06:24 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 01 December 2003 at 08:03 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 02 December 2003 at 04:27 AM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 1 Dec 2003 6:12 pm

Some communicate an idea with complex words, others use simple, easy to understand, words. Both are necessary for communicating in the world of music

......You must remember that I'm only an undertaker and that requires a more basic form of communication such as pictures and drawings.

Either of us agreeing with the other would leave nothing for discussion. I prefer to stay with or close to the melody line of a song. That is just how I was taught. I cannot say that generic is wrong nor will I but if you lose the melody line of a song, what happens to that song?

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 1 Dec 2003 6:36 pm

Mike......if you applied your question to a solo in Jazz, Rock, Pop, Blues, etc the answer would be...when you stray from the strict melody you are improvising over the changes which is usually desired more when it comes time to solo.

Even In Traditional Country Music some of the greatest solos had very little, or nothing at all, to do with the melody of the song. "Blue Bayou" and "I'll Come Running" are memorable solo's. I hope you did not misunderstand me, I am not advocating one over the other. I believe it is more important to realize both directions are good and appreciated by music lovers of all ages.

Paul

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Dec 2003 8:27 pm

I've read that "Creativity is the art of concealing your sources." I'm never quite sure that's true, though.