True melody ,,V,,generic

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 24 Nov 2003 11:00 am

I find I play a lot of generic breaks on songs Im not that failiar with. Often when setting in with a group, and I guess this makes sence at the time , just follow the chord pattern and make somthing out of it.
Some songs demand exact exact melody playing say in the case of Together Again, no generic break on that song

But so many songs lend themselves to be played with generic breaks on the steel, just play somthing pleasing to the ear

Is this right or wrong ? I have listned to players who play the breaks true to the melody line and others who play a somewhat made up or generic line that wasnt totaly out of place and did fit the song well.
Which is more pleasing , or should I say, correct for a steel player to be playing on the job.

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David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 24 Nov 2003 11:21 am

I'm not sure I want to jump in here as to what is "correct", but I, for one, do not think much of generic, disposable breaks. Sometimes, I suppose, they are unavoidable, especially if one's level of skill is minimal; but while playing melody specific lines may be more difficult at first, the results can be so much more rewarding and enjoyable. You can rely on your style to carry you, not some bag of high maintenance tricks that can lose their charm quickly. As I said in an earlier post, "Oh, I've heard that one before" is not my idea of a compliment.

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2004 D2 Millennium S12-U
1982 MSA VXL S12-U
Stereo Steel Amp w/15" BWs and 12" Altec 417s
several guitars, including B-Bender Tele

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Nov 2003 12:24 pm

We used to call them "Sears and Roebuck" turnarounds, because they were pretty generic. The famous Together Again break is close to the original melody line, but certainly not identical. Playing "identical to the melody" breaks is very simple and cogent, but not very interesting.

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 24 Nov 2003 3:54 pm

Made up breaks do nothing but confuse the melody. Sometimes when the player gets through with it you don't know what he was playing. If you play it instrumentally ,play the singer's part with as much of the back up as possible. That's where it is at imop.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 24 Nov 2003 4:05 pm

Dees is whvy vee must follow the masters and learn from them.

I've never heard a "predictable" Jimmy Day break in my life but I can tell when he's on the record. Same for John Hughey.

One of the beautiful aspects of the pedal steel is that there is a "million" ways to get from here to there (i.e. as in V to I cord).

There's only one solution to sounding "boring" and that is "Gotta study and practise more". You'll excuse me whilst I get back to my fretboard.

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 25 Nov 2003 9:22 am

Well thanks for the opinions there fellas

thats what I was wanting.
And Mr Grantham, I herd you play a few years ago in Lexington ,KY and I must say you are one of the finest players I have had the pleasure of listning to.
For any one wanting to hear a great player of our beloved instrument, catch Mr Grantham playing when you can

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 25 Nov 2003 9:35 am

Thanks a bunch

I like to adlib too but I try to hold it down as much as I can.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Nov 2003 10:10 am

Yes it's true that by playing only the melody lines it can get monotonous fairly quickly..

But that being said..in my view ....

It's more important to be able to play the melody line than the ad-lib phrases.

By playing the ad-lib lines only you may limit yourself to a few tricks in the bag..by playing the melody lines you can't hide behind the tricks , you can either play it or you can't. Playing and practicing melody lines will open up the entire fretboard right there in front of you. You knowledge and skill set will be greatly advanced.

A quality of a fine musician is one where they can weave in and out of the melody lines at will. Play the Melody, play around the melody, play off the melody.

I personally think that this skill set is mandatory..unfortunatley for me I learned this lesson late, well after performing for many many years.

Next time you're with a hot bandstand player and they are really rippin' out the licks..ask him ( or her) to play a few melody lines ..Might be interesting..

good luck

T[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2003 at 10:13 AM.]

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 25 Nov 2003 10:27 am

I heard a fine jazz player once say that you should only be ALLOWED to improvise after you can play the melody by ear straight, upside down, and backwards in any key. In our case, that would mean with pretty chords and harmony too. Then when you do decide to create something new, you know you're not doing it because you're too lazy to learn the tune.

Also, most people, especially non-musicians, will like to hear some form of the melody, maybe changed around a little and made fancier or simpler, but if you add something new, it should be at least as good/interesting/attractive as the melody. That's a higher standard in some tunes than others...[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 25 November 2003 at 10:31 AM.]

Buck Grantham · Post by **Buck Grantham** » 25 Nov 2003 2:05 pm

Well said Tony and John !!!!!

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 25 Nov 2003 2:23 pm

The problem is, if you have 5 shuffles in the key of C (probably all 4 chords in each tune), in a set, what distinguishes one from the other? The melody! So if you just apply Lick #1 In C to each tune, it's going to get old fast.

In whatever style of music, there is a core repertoire of melodies, whether it's bluegrass, Texas fiddle, Old Time, bebop, or whatever, that one is expected to know...

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 25 Nov 2003 4:35 pm

John, Tony......very well said;

These notions, while they seem to be no brainers to us, are difficult, if not impossible, to impart to others before their time. Sadly, too many never get it at all.

I won't even pick up a guitar in a music store, because I have no "lick du jour" to show off. Those who do get all puffed up over themselves, not realizing how bad it makes them look to those who've gotten past all that.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 26 Nov 2003 5:18 am

I know this is slightly off topic. I am trying to answer this question from the point of view that we all remain students even when we have pro gigs. I believe that all musicians get into trouble live because they didn't bring the adequate tools to complete the job.

To play the melody is to copy someone elses improvisation.

This is the way I was taught.

1. the scales and chords are the abc's of music.

2. the punctuation is the phrasing and rhythm of words/ melody/ improvisations.

3. learning to sound out, write, and spell words are when we copy the melody.

4. learning to put together sentences so that we can express our own ideas is improvisation. This includes composing licks, solo's, and whole songs.

Number 4 is the only step that gives a musician their own voice. It is also impossible to become a great improviser without the understanding and ability to implement steps 1 thru 3 at will.

Guitarists like Luther Perkins only learned steps 2 & 3. Guitarists like Jerry Reed know all very well. I guess the answer to these types of "what to do?" and "what's the most important?" questions depends on how far one wants to go musically. Omitting either one of these steps will cripple the musician severely in certain live musical settings.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 November 2003 at 05:27 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 26 November 2003 at 07:46 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 26 Nov 2003 5:52 am

Paul, I've never seriously thought of our music in the context you just described, but it certainly is one of the best analogies of the system I've ever read. I guess I couldn't agree with you more.

It seems each time I do a lead ride I do it differently. I don't really think about the melody as much as I do the chord structures. The transitions from one chordal function to another, to me, is the beauty of playing the steel guitar.

I find myself never playing a song just in one register. That to me is monotonous and I firmly believe it puts the clientele to sleep. Thanks for the description and taking the time to post it. I just printed it for my students benefit and mine too for certain...

I thot I was the only nut up this early.

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 26 Nov 2003 8:36 am

The reasons I suggest knowing the melody, at least as a point of departure:

1) It's the thing that seperates the hundreds of three chord tunes, whether it's country, bluegrass, oldtime, whatever...

2) Knowing scales and chord tones is essential, but many students just learn them and then paint-by-the-numbers, with no sense of melodic or rhythmic phrasing, development, or musical composition- it can be hot lick spewage very fast if not reigned in by some sense of taste, form, and storytelling-type development. As a student and teacher myself, I experienced it in my own playing and that of the hundreds of students I've worked with...and like Mr. Franklin, I totally consider myself a student and always will.

3) By learning melodies in any style, you get a sense of the vocabulary specific to that style- for example, what you play on a country tune largely isn't going to make it on a jazz tune- each has their own unique "thang" that should be honored, and the only way to get that thang is to get in there and learn the tunes.

A good example is when a hotshot country player comes in to a bluegrass session and just takes the hot-licks-over-changes approach- it can be very cool in a way, but after the first couple of tunes, there's probably gonna be a lot of repeated ideas that don't relate to the musical vehicles...to me the most exciting playing in that style comes from playing "off" the melody and improvising within the melodic framework, like a great Texas fiddle player like Benny Thomasson, mark O'Connor, Byron Berline etc. would do.

Unless you were "struck by lightning" and born a musical genius (it ain't me, babe), learning other's melodies/interpretations/improvisations is essential to developing your own voice within any given style.

That said, it was be boring as hell to just quote the melody "note for note" ,mechanically, in every solo- the point is that there are myriad ways to vary a melody, which is what makes bluegrass type playing so much fun- get 25 different recordings of a standard fiddle tune and you'll hear 25 different "settings" of the melody- all different, yet all recognizable.

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 26 Nov 2003 10:26 am

Mr Franklin, First I want to thank you for taking the time to reply to this topic.
Sometimes when things are explained to one with the logic you used, it makes dramatic changes in the way we as steel players look at the instrument

Some of the bands I set in with when not with the boss "David Church" are more or less weekend bar bands, out for the money & not very professional & so I get a little lazy on stage & use generic breaks & fills with these groups. But I see now this is a bad practice to follow anytime

good or bad band.
So the next time Im playing on the off weekend with some of the good old boys, think I will play the melody lines & remember what "Paul Franklin" said"

Thanks Paul

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 26 Nov 2003 11:45 am

I decided to work up the Stevie Wonder song "I Just Called to Say I Love You" [I'm not sure that is the proper title] as a guitar instrumental with my new band. The "A" part is a simple, yet haunting and beautiful melody; it provides a backdrop to go some wonderful places that playing generic stuff over chord changes will never get you. You need to know how to play melodies to do it, but you don't want to go there exactly the same more than once.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 26 Nov 2003 1:49 pm

I had to noodle on this a bit after reading it. Here's my question, isn't a "generic lick" just another "word," to use Mr.Franklin's analogy? Maybe it's called generic becasue it's been used so much or we've forgot where we learned it, but in essence, what makes it any different from the lick or phrase learned yesterday? I'm probably still learning the stuff you guys term generic, since I've only been playing a little over a year.

I guess to me, it's all part of the musical vocabulary, and level of play depends not only on how large your vocabulary is, but how you use it.

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Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

David Deratany · Post by **David Deratany** » 26 Nov 2003 2:39 pm

I use the term "generic lick" to connote something not melody based or specific to a particular song; somthing that could fit in many places.. too many places, while bringing nothing to mind. This is not to pass judgment on any merit it might have musically apart from its application.

Generally, the faster the song, the more useful generic licks can become, as I find it hard to create high speed, high energy lines that are very much melody based. In these cases, I imagine that so long as you don't overuse them, they can be a worthwhile addition to one's playing. At some level they can approach, or in the case of Franklin, actually become art.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Nov 2003 3:06 pm

When composing / improvising a solo over a chord progression, the melody is ONLY ONE of MANY elements I take into consideration. As Paul explained so well, the scales derived from the chord progression, original melody and basic music theory dictate the set of appropriate notes.

The melody of the song is most always within that set of notes, but the singer has ALREADY SUNG THAT MELODY. I find countermelodies that are complementary to the original melody of the song much more interesting as solos. E.g., play notes that ascend if the melody descends while maintaining the same note values.

Another approach is to play interesting harmony along with the melody. I believe that this is what many players mean when they say 'play the melody'. Playing a single note regurgitation of the melody is very boring to my ears. There are a million interesting ways to weave harmonies around the melody notes. Players like Lloyd Green are particularly skilled in this technique.

Looking at a solo in terms of licks, generic or otherwise, is a dead end street, from my perspective. We all string licks together from time to time, but a solo that is 'painted' in the way an artist approaches a canvas is a much more musical creation, in my oprinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 26 November 2003 at 03:08 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 26 Nov 2003 4:50 pm

Try learning little bits from all areas instead of placing more value on one over another. Since all are needed to play, a balance of musical knowledge is what I strive for.....Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 26 November 2003 at 05:58 PM.]

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 26 Nov 2003 5:31 pm

I know what you mean David. I think everything has its place, like in the faster paced tunes.

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Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Derek Duplessie · Post by **Derek Duplessie** » 26 Nov 2003 6:01 pm

Right on Paul!! Of course there is a time and place for the melody, but the art in playing the
steel, is when you let your emotions lead your
playing instead of copying what you've already
heard. Unless your recording the song solo, It's
the singers job to carry the melody.
-Derek

Ward Wilsey · Post by **Ward Wilsey** » 26 Nov 2003 6:21 pm

As a beginner, one thing I love about the steel guitar is that just playing the molody sounds so beautiful. I mean, playing a single note melody on a six string isn't very interesting at all, and while you could play a three note harmonized melody, its kinda tough to pull off. But with a steel, you add the pedals and a bar, and a simple melody is plain awesome. I love solos that suggest the melody and build off it. A good example is the Remember When solo. Just magical. What a great instrument, and I love the info I get on this forum. Paul's advice in this thread is a great way to look at your instrument and making music in general.

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 26 Nov 2003 7:22 pm

I agree with Paul IF...you are a well known steel player. But if you are a one county steel man, or standard lead, playing small clubs and honky tonks you need to make it sound as close to the recording as you can. If you don't the people are going to think you can't play.

Bob