Is the C6 a 'Dated' Tuning?

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 10 Apr 2014 1:01 pm

I have been thinking about this ever since i got back from the Texas Steel Jamboree in Dallas last month, and especially after hearing the playing of Randy Kohrs jamming in the Little Walter amp room, then going over and spending most of the day in the Non-Pedal showcase which was nearly dominated by C6 players.

It kind of popped back in my mind regarding the current discussion going on about the best tunings for Americana/Praise & Worship music and i didnt want to hijack that thread..

I'm certainly of the opinion that there is no "best" tuning - they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but as people search for the perfect tuning, i come away with this little belief: it seems that the standard open tunings (G, D) have far more viability to adapt to the changes in music.
while listening to Randy play (he is a dobro player and playing open G on steel guitar) I notice that is the sound that most modern artists are after and the C6, with all its advanced possibilities, is very "dated" sounding in comparison - no matter who/how good the player is. I know that no tuning is fixed to a certain musical style, but it does lend itself to a certain playing style. I could easily hear a artist/producer going "i want that on this record" - but the C6 still sounds stuck in some mid-century time warp.

Now i have spent my entire musical life playing music/tunes from 1930-1960, so i am a retro kinda player, those are the sounds in my head and the modern stuff is not my thing - but, what do you think about this observation?

*i'm referring here to modern styles of music (the kind people call you up for gigs/recordings for), not someone whose repertoire includes Body & Soul, etc

I can't think of any modern steel player that uses C6, for all its harmonic benefits - Ben Harper, David Lindley, etc all favor open tunings and even Cindy Cashdollar seems to abandon the C6 when called for most of her sessions (other than western swing).

Wayne D. Clark · Post by **Wayne D. Clark** » 10 Apr 2014 1:45 pm

Jerome, I haven't Played much in the C6th tuning, My time goes back to the 40's, 50's & 60's. E7th was popular in those days. C6th seems to be real popular now days. But I keep going back to a Tuning I really like. Top down E, B, G#, E, C#. G#, E., It has a Sound I like. It plays well for Me, and that is the only one I play for now days.

Joel Meginsky · Post by **Joel Meginsky** » 10 Apr 2014 1:51 pm

Certain tunings have been used in the past to accommodate the then current harmonic and melodic vocabularies. That doesn't necessarily mean those tunings are restrictive to those styles. You don't have to play the 6th in a C6 tuning, just as you can choose to play a 6th, or any other note, in a straight up open tuning. All the intervals are found in every tuning.

The violin tuning has remained in open 5ths for at least 300 years, yet the music played on this instrument has radically changed over time. It's not about the violin. The piano is tuned in consecutive ascending half steps, with no duplication. That setup was conducive to certain harmonic thinking. A prehistoric bone flute may have had only 5 notes, but I'm sure its masters were ok with it.

If you are happy making music with a one string tuning and 3 pedals, whose to say? It all depends on context, prior listening experience, and listener expectations. C6 players at shows play to sympathetic audiences who expect this instrument to be played as it was in its heyday.

What exactly is at stake here? The music of the past is not being created today, only recreated. Even most current music is quite derivative. Many are happy to listen and play older music. People who did not grow up in those eras may have different ideas. There is no crowd to keep pace with. There's room for many approaches, and tuning is only a part of it. It's really about musical expression.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 10 Apr 2014 3:52 pm

There's a lot to unpack here and talk about, but basically... C6 does not have to sound "dated" IMO. If it does, it's the fault of the Player. It's true that 6th tunings are perfect for Western Swing and Hawaiian music because of the full 6th chord built into the tuning. But there is much more in C6, way more than the Major chord tunings that some players use today (and were used in the 1920s). If you go to a steel guitar show and hear a ten steel players playing western swing, country standards, or Hawaiian on C6 tuning, I think that says more about the Players and the show than the C6 Tuning.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 10 Apr 2014 4:00 pm

Doug Beaumier wrote:There's a lot to unpack here and talk about, but basically... C6 does not have to sound "dated" IMO. If it does, it's the fault of the Player. It's true that 6th tunings are perfect for Western Swing and Hawaiian music because of the full 6th chord built into the tuning. But there is much more in C6, way more than the Major chord tunings that some players use today (and were used in the 1920s). If you go to a steel guitar show and hear a ten steel players playing western swing, country standards, or Hawaiian on C6 tuning, I think that says more about the Players and the show than the C6 Tuning.

I'm in 100% agreement with you, Doug. I have played every tuning and then some, and I have found that C6 is not at all dated. I was one who believed it was dated, but it was because of my lack of vision in the tuning and the fact that most other players I've ever heard are not really interested in creating modern music. I am interested in creating modern sounds and I use 2 necks built from C6.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 10 Apr 2014 4:52 pm

Just put an F# in the bass.......

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 10 Apr 2014 4:53 pm

Just put an F# in the bass.......

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 10 Apr 2014 4:57 pm

i understand what you guys are saying, but i can help but notice that most of the steel i hear being used today when artists/producers want a steel guitar - its largely open based tunings played in a 'slide style' more or less - thats the sound they want. i have yet to hear anyone play the C6 tuning, not saying no one has...but i aint hearing it out there.

* i don't mean modern as in avant garde - but modern as in stuff recorded in the last 5-10 years

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 10 Apr 2014 5:20 pm

Most guys who are doing lap steel sessions are either still borrowing heavily from the Lindley playbook, or some other G slide guitar kind of sound, or they are playing retro styles. There hasn't really been any new ground broken except with what you're hearing sometimes from some guys like AJ Ghent and Steve Cunningham. I'm sure those guys would find a way to sound equally hip on C6.

I'd love to hear the instrument come into its own again and move in a completely new direction, but it's up to the players.

David Matzenik · Post by **David Matzenik** » 10 Apr 2014 5:22 pm

Joel Meginsky wrote:Even most current music is quite derivative.

I am surprised you didn't get your leg bitten off for putting the above comment in actual type face.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 10 Apr 2014 5:23 pm

...most of the steel i hear being used today... its largely open based tunings played in a 'slide style'

Yes, the role of the steel guitar has changed in recent years. Studios today use the steel more for atmosphere, ambient sounds, simple major chord slides, etc. But I don't think you'll be hearing much of that at steel guitar shows.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 10 Apr 2014 5:35 pm

Even most current music is quite derivative.

Very true! It's been that way for years. Early Dylan looked and sounded a lot like Woody Guthrie. The Rolling Stones tried desperately to clone the Chicago Blues sound (according to Jagger). New Wave of the 80s borrowed heavily from bands of the 50s and 60s.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 10 Apr 2014 5:41 pm

Doug Beaumier wrote: Yes, the role of the steel guitar has changed in recent years. Studios today use the steel more for atmosphere, ambient sounds, simple major chord slides, etc. But I don't think you'll be hearing much of that at steel guitar shows.

and those players are largely out of work too.... not to mention names, but i was shocked to hear one of the top LA pedal steel session musicians, whose name is on some of the greatest albums of all time and still in his prime had less than a 2 dozen studio calls last year....
off topic, but kinda relevant to the thread

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 10 Apr 2014 5:59 pm

The best advice I ever got was from guitarist Matt Smith who told me, "write your own music for steel guitar. Leave a legacy behind."

I have never even really thought of becoming a studio steel player (well, I did when I bought my first pedal steel, but that didn't last). I've always wanted to be involved in the music from the ground up.

These are not good times to be a session musician.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 10 Apr 2014 6:29 pm

more topic drift....but i recall Buddy Emmons himself summing up the studio game as this:
famous record producer..."GET ME BUDDY EMMONS!...then "get me A Buddy Emmons"....then "Who the Hell is Buddy Emmons?"

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 10 Apr 2014 6:33 pm

The way I heard it:

5 stages of a musician's career:

1. Who's Buddy Emmons?
2. Have you heard Buddy Emmons?
3. Buddy Emmons is the greatest!
4. What ever happened to Buddy Emmons?
5. Who's Buddy Emmons?

Adam Nero · Post by **Adam Nero** » 10 Apr 2014 6:46 pm

I haven't been playing long. But I've been working diligently at building up my c6 country and Hawaiian repertoire. I cannot think of a better way to gain the technique and melodic understanding necessary to play in my friends' bands that require some of the "other" sounds you've all been talking about. Because even then I stay in c6!

Same thing when I was learning guitar as a teenager... the jazz and classical I studied was applicable in other styles. All [edit: mostly] standard tuning.

C6 is just an amazing and versatile tuning... love it.

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 11 Apr 2014 12:03 am

All of the tunings are dated, unless you can think of a new one?
C6th is actually a NEW tuning developed by the genius Jerry Byrd in the last century to get all of the modern jazz chord inversions.
What has anyone else done lately for Steel Without Pedals!

John RJ Wilson · Post by **John RJ Wilson** » 11 Apr 2014 1:08 am

When I started lap steel nearly a year ago, I was dragged kicking and screaming to C6th tuning, in the best possible sense from all the good advice I received here, because that was where all the learning material is. There is no doubt it has a distinctive sound, and one the general listener will immediately recognise from country and hawaiian music, and the commonly accepted stereotypical sound. However it is vital to these genres, and if that sound is dated, it is no more dated than Rennaisance music or baroque music or delta blues. The music comes from the player though and the musical formation, the chord structure, has as much to do with the sound as does the tuning, and there are plenty of examples of players who think far enough outside the box to use C6th in new ways and forms. Many of whom sit on this forum.
Personally I have now moved to open Eminor as my standard tuning on one lapsteel and open G on my other.And that is where I now murder songs

My son likes the eminor too, as he has no intention of learning lap steel properly, but it is close enought to standard that he can play around in the rock genre to his hearts content.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 11 Apr 2014 3:27 am

John RJ Wilson wrote: My son likes the eminor too, as he has no intention of learning lap steel properly, but it is close enought to standard that he can play around in the rock genre to his hearts content.

great post John and i think it weaves closer to my theory about the C6. Maybe thats just the whole point of different tunings = different flavors and cramming round pegs into square holes can be done, but why not use the square pegs instead.

a young teen (i.e. the future of steel) is going to use the tuning that is closest to his reference of the sounds he is surrounded by. if he is interested in the steel guitar and we tell him to play C6 because it offers the most options and he starts messing around on it - he will probably reject it as 'old timey' sounding in favor of some open tuning closer to what he is exposed to.

when Mike talks about the next ground breaker in the steel world, i just have a feeling it won't be on C6 - and that is fine, i'm not a C6 hard-liner by any means.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 11 Apr 2014 3:43 am

6th tunings are better for single note playing. As far as I know, the pentatonic scale has not gone out of style, and if one has the ability of playing single notes more cleanly because of a tuning, it makes the instrument more feasible as something more than just a color.

A big part of the discussion has to be number of strings, though. C6 tuning on 6 string instruments is limited for certain things, especially in the role of rhythm guitarist (although I realize that isn't the goal of many steel players, it is mine). If your goal is to play like Billy Gibbons, 6 strings won't cut it.

John RJ Wilson · Post by **John RJ Wilson** » 11 Apr 2014 4:15 am

Yup I've come to realise that, but at present I'm having enough trouble blundering around on 6 strings never mind adding another 2, in any tuning. But if I stay with the instrument I see where it must lead.

Nate Hofer · Post by **Nate Hofer** » 11 Apr 2014 4:35 am

Yes! Rhythm on C6 is something I'm definitely perusing because to me it's super fun. C6 in terms of a C# somewhere in the bottom and a low F definitely help me with a lot of chords.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 11 Apr 2014 5:20 am

C6 isn't limited. The player's creative style is the limitation.

The pentatonic scales will probably NEVER go out of style when soloing as many POP genres of music rely on them heavily for melodic work. Some genres are built strictly around the pentatonic scale. Like Early Blues/Gospel music.

AJ Ghent although I enjoy his energy, try watching/listening to back to back performances. It sounds like he's expressing the same ideas from song to song. He & Robert Randolph still use the same Gospel repetitive phrasing. Almost identical

Blues music though most solos are only the pentatonic scale being played. Has the extra expression by bending the 3rd or 7th notes of the scale up. Or sometimes that in between note imperfection add that extra grit. Like Warren Haynes or BB king does.

Creative innovation comes from Inspiration, Perspiration then Exploration. Hendrix didn't need a different tuning to approach the instrument sounds with what inversion "FELT" better to him, nor did Wes Montgomery. They used the same.

Chris Renna · Post by **Chris Renna** » 11 Apr 2014 8:57 am

I've been thinking a lot lately about getting another steel in order to use a tuning more suited to the modern sacred steel sound. Does anyone have examples of sacred steel players using a C6? I think I remember mention that a few of them do use a form of it. Are those super fast pentatonic bluesy runs that AJ and Randolph do achievable only in other tunings? Seems like picks are a factor as well.

This isn't totally addressing the original question but I do think AJ and Randolph are modern in their approaches and I guess I want the best of all worlds. If that means 2 instruments or more then so be it. Or better yet, maybe some of this could be achieved by retuning a string or 2 on the C6 for some songs. I'm talking about lead playing not rhythm which was also brought up here.

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