Disconnecting pedal weight lift springs ???

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

I think some guitars don't even have them. Springs that pull the pedal up at the top of the pedal rod. Other than always returning the pedal to the exact position, I see no use for the. Why not just let the weight of the pedal and pedal rod just hang on the linkage and then transfer that force onto the tuning nut pulling against the finger? This would almost be like a helper spring. I just disconnected my springs on my Emmons SKH and notice a nice easier pedal push with one less spring fighting me. I can not think of any reason to reconnect to the springs. Any comments ? Please and thank you. Ron
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I have been do this for about 40 years. It makes the guitar easier to play and takes out "slop" in many cases. On a PP I still use a spring on pedal 3, but never on 1&2 or most of the C neck. It is amazing how much you can improve the action on most guitars when doing this.

Run the pull rod from the changer to the pull finger, leave a little "play" to compensate for overall guitar contraction and expansion and adjust the stop at the pedal rod adjusting screw. Always adjust the smallest string first if pulling more than one string.

I have had many players just sit there with smiles for miles after I have done this to their guitars. Some have not been believers, not a problem, then they call years later and said, "if only I had listened and tried it" I love it. Next!!

Good call Ron.

Larry Behm
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

TTT . Please, more thoughts.
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Jim P and Michael Yahl have both mentioned that one can do away with them on MSA. I didnt't have them on my Zum (bought new), or my Sho-Bud when I bought 'em, and they're not on my MSA now.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

My Zum doesn't uses pedal return springs. One feature I like about the Zum is that the pedal stops are fixed and the "at rest" pedal position is adjustable. Since there are no return springs, it's the weight of the pedal and pedal rod that keep the pedal changes taut without slack. I really like that firm stop at the end of the pedal travel, too.

I like a little resistance in pedal action that can be felt…. like on my Emmons push-pull. Once tried removing the return springs from my Emmons (PP), but removing the pedal return springs allows the C pedal to drop when the A pedal is pressed. Not good. Sad

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Jerry Jones

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Be careful, especially with a U-12. There might be several pedals making changes on one string. While the string tension will pull one, or even 2 pedals back to neutral, more than that might result in odd tuning problems when strings don't return fully due to the weight of several pedals. I know.... I had this problem on a guitar.... drove me crazy until I figured it out.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

I take some of the springs off my push pulls. Plays much better... The c pedal plays fine with it so I leave it on.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Every Emmons I've ever had I took the pedal springs off. If the pedal return stops are set correct, I can't see any use for the springs except to make guitar play mushy. The two P/P's I have now have the springs removed from E9th pedals only. C6th doesn't make a lot of difference to me. But the P/P especially has to have the slack set just right or your pedal rods will hop out of their little slot. Mine never have but it is set up correct for them not to.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

John Polstra · From: Lopez Island, WA, USA

I've read recommendations to remove those springs several times in the Forum over the years. Sorry, but I'm skeptical. If the springs aren't needed, then why did the builders put them in? Do you really think they'd add a bunch of springs if they didn't see a benefit from them? I have more faith in the classic pedal steel builders than that.

John

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

John, if you have a pedal set to the easiest pull, the weight of the pedal can, occasionally, effect the open note. So there is a reason at the outlying margins for the springs. But it really does only impact a few pedals.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Around 1998, a guy brought a used Nashville LTD to me, that he had just bought, to set up. He was new to steel and didn't have any idea how to set it up.

Some of the pedal springs were disconnected and hanging loose on the steel. I asked him about that and he said the steel had been recently worked on by Duane Marrs and was told they were not needed. The guitar had some tuning problems and reconnecting the springs fixed some of the problems.

The springs may not be needed on some guitars, but on this particular Nashville LTD they were needed.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Maybe the lighter spring tension idea would be a good compromise.
I too tried removing them on my PushPull Emmons-S12 one time several years ago, but I inadvertently knocked the top of the A-pedal rod out of the holder at the cross-rod, and decided to just leave them on.
I'll have to pop one off today and see if it really makes much of a difference in pedal pushing feel.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Pete, your P/P can be adjusted to where when a pedal is in the up(not pressed) position, the pedal rod won't come out. It will make a difference in pedal feel.
I liked the spring types that I think were on Sho-Buds. The spring went around the cross shaft and braced against the body of guitar. Those type didn't effect the pedal feel hardly at all but kept pedal in up position. They look like this in pic. The wheel can be reinvented and made better. Been done a many time.

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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Willie Sims · From: PADUCAH, KY, USA

I leave my return springs hooked up, mainly because I like to feel the pedals before they start moving the string , I find without the Springs you can raise the strings without knowing it If you only touched the pedal such as resting your foot on the pedal. I keep a bout one eighth inch play from the pedal stop to where it engages pull Rod.

Darrell Birtcher · Posted 26 Mar 2014 10:31 am

I'm with Willie. I've had guitars with and without return springs. At first I really liked the sensitive feel of not having the springs, but over time I grew to like them. If each of the strings on a pedal are timed correctly, then I like the feel of being able to touch my foot down on the pedal without raising a string. The slight loss of sensitivity is made up by the sure footed feel I get with the spring. Maybe it's because I always play with boots on. It might be a different story if I were to play in soft shoes or no shoes.

Also, if my foot accidentally slips off a pedal, there is less rod and pedal rattle because the spring brings it to a standstill sooner. Overall, I think the springs make the guitar a bit quieter, especially on fast pedal movements. It just helps to clamp down on extraneous vibrations. I'm keeping them on.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

They aren't without merit. I've had trouble that disappears when you turn the guitar over.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I have to 100% agree with Darrell on the springs. I too play in boots (mostly). The pedal action is easy and solid (no slop) on my Franklin, even after 32 years.

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

Jim,
Sorry Jim, but when I try to play that way, all my blood rushes to my head and get really dizzy.....RP
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I removed the pedal #1 and #2 return springs about 4-5 yrs ago after talking w/ Larry Behm. The pedal action is noticeably better. I have never had a pedal rod fall off while playing.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Yes there are small springs on the Franklin.

With the helper springs on some of the pulls and the easy pedal pressure, I would be afraid to remove the springs. The pedal action design had a lot to do with how Hal Rugg wanted the feel and action to be. One thing he said Hal was adamant about was no slack on the pedals and knee levers.

A PP is different, I had a 71 D-10 PP, Black of course Laughing

that I bought new and played until I got my new Franklin in late 81.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I was checking my Emmons S12U and some of the pedals (including the A pedal which lowers 9, 5, and 12 a half step on LKV) have to travel a distance before engaging the raise (to allow for the Lowers).
Maybe because those springs have been on there since 1982, but the pressure required to press through the slack does not seem like much at all (testing with my hand), but there is still enough spring to return the pedal-rod to a fully raised position.
Just sharing an observation.
Tony, do you or Larry have any E9th lowers on your A-pedal?
If not, I can see where there would be considerably less chance of the top of the A-pedal-rod popping out of the cross-rod slot.
If I were to remove the springs I would probably use a small rubber O-ring to secure the pedal-rod-hook to the cross-rod-notch... Just a thought.

Also, Henry, that is the type of spring that Sierra uses on their cross-rods to keep the pedal/rod fully raised.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Thanks Pete, didn't know what other guitars used those type springs. I really like them, they have very little tension you can feel and do the job. The P/P coil type springs have enough tension to lift the whole guitar, much less pull pedal back to top.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

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