No amp on stage?

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 23 Mar 2014 3:03 pm

Is anybody out there playing without an amp on stage? Thinking about going straight off the effects rack to the PA system. Might help stop complaints about stage volume. With the volume that they require, and the amp mic'd it is so low that I don't get any response from the amplifier.

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 23 Mar 2014 3:12 pm

About 5 years ago, I played pedal steel in the pit band for "Das Barbeque", a takeoff on Wagner's Ring Cycle, set in Texas. It was at the Moore Theater in Seattle, home of a lot of shows by rock and country artists. I hauled in my Vegas 400, and the sound man said "why don't you let me send you through the house". I told him about my suspicion about letting sound people set my sound. He told me he had done the sound for George Jones and others. I let him do it. I have NEVER sounded so good. He asked me how I liked it, and I asked him "Can I buy you?" I also play in a Hawaiian band at the Northwest Folklife Festival. The head sound man decided he liked us, so for the last 4 years he's mixed my D8 Fender with wonderful results. I don't want to tell you about the times I've regretted going direct. In summary, it depends on the sound guys.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 23 Mar 2014 4:22 pm

Okay, I went to your YouTube videos.

Your amp appears to be flat on the floor. Lean it back; put it on a stand, maybe get a smaller amp.

Point the amp at *your* head. Not at anything else.
Point it away from anybody singing.

If I may; a Fender Super Champ XD or X2 with a replacement Eminence Ragin Cajun will fit, angled and laid-back ( use a 2X4 block under the front ) more or less between the left legs of your steel, and if you're *careful*, only you will hear it. You may need to figure out something to block the back sound; piece of plywood, carpet - but something to where the amp can breathe. Might be worth a bungee cord to make sure the amp doesn't fall back.

It'll sound... okay but it has a killer line out and you won't need to be in the monitors. I would just do that as an intermediate step between the amp you now have and full on line in only.

If not the Fender, then something that size, perhaps with replacement speakers.

Also, by the time we hear you in the camera video, it's pretty washed out. Back the reverb down; you're getting a lot of reverb in the room. This can actually reduce perceived stage volume.

The youtube videos sound basically balanced. You're under the snare, generally.

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 23 Mar 2014 4:41 pm

We use in ears in the band and that cuts out most of what is comming from the amp. Those videos are older and I have downsized the amp and tried that. Part of the issue is the "star" of the group. He plays with the mix the whole show on an Ipad. The sound guy and him sort of battle it out so to speak. If he hears my amp he turns it down in the mix rather I am on lead or steel. I am just trying to remove one variable. Its a different band than the videos. Never had an issue with those guys.

Mack Quinney · Post by **Mack Quinney** » 23 Mar 2014 4:55 pm

Jaclyn,
In our little band we are trying to go amp-less. It's been mixed results. Mainly volume being the problem. We run four monitor mixes. One for bass and drummer, one for lead instruments, one for vocals, and side fills.

Two weeks ago we had a great mix, with low volume, (that was the goal). Last week we lost our setup in the digital mixer and it was horrid.

If you can keep people from competing for air space (louder and louder it can get) then it works good. I prefer to play this way because it gives me a reference to the rest of the band in lieu of just hearing a loud amp, or not hearing my amp, and just hearing a loud bass or guitar amp.

We also do not have a sound man. We are recording a song or two in the mixer, then I go out front with an iPad and set the front of the house mix and levels.

Good luck with it.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 23 Mar 2014 6:11 pm

Jaclyn Jones wrote:We use in ears in the band and that cuts out most of what is comming from the amp. Those videos are older and I have downsized the amp and tried that. Part of the issue is the "star" of the group. He plays with the mix the whole show on an Ipad. The sound guy and him sort of battle it out so to speak. If he hears my amp he turns it down in the mix rather I am on lead or steel. I am just trying to remove one variable. Its a different band than the videos. Never had an issue with those guys.

Well, that'd be the first problem. It's IMPOSSIBLE to effectively mix house sound from the stage. Prince tried that too ! An amateur move at best. At this point you have to ask yourself if it's worth the hassle. If it's a good paying gig that has a future, you might just suck it up,run direct and let the chips fall where they may. If you're just in the band cause it's something to do on a Saturday night,I'd find something else to do and save yourself some headaches. With the exception of Prince, I've never known of another " professional" messing with the sound from the stage. It's just a recipe for disaster. I have a friend who owned his own sound reenforcement company. When his band played, even he hired his number one engineer with complete confidence. That's the problem with playing with "stars" instead of professionals.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 23 Mar 2014 6:37 pm

I didn't use an amp for about 10 years in a church band. I used a Digitech 2112 preamp/effects unit and went direct. We used in-ears with Aviom personal monitors. We had a great sound man, my son. It's not because I'm prejudiced, the live recordings sounded like studio produced CD's every service.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 23 Mar 2014 7:35 pm

Dustin Rigsby wrote:
Well, that'd be the first problem. It's IMPOSSIBLE to effectively mix house sound from the stage.

(If you're 100% line in, then that's different - it's harder, but still... )

It is far from impossible. I might buy that it's a lost art. I am perfectly comfortable managing my own levels from the stage. I *very rarely* get asked to turn down; usually it's "turn up". *Most* bar bands are much better off running instruments from stage level and running vocals only through the PA - if they're interested in it and can listen to the overall mix of the band.

But most people need to turn down. You are not in a mini-concert, you are in a bar gig.

Again - *where is the snare*? For leads, get over it just a skosh, the rest of the time, under it. And if you're lucky, and are playing basically "acoustic" music, you can turn even farther down.

I'd make the singular caveat of some places where the stages are so dead you get no room return. These places usually have house sound, and it's almost always clueless.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 23 Mar 2014 7:43 pm

Jaclyn Jones wrote:We use in ears in the band and that cuts out most of what is comming from the amp. Those videos are older and I have downsized the amp and tried that. Part of the issue is the "star" of the group. He plays with the mix the whole show on an Ipad. The sound guy and him sort of battle it out so to speak. If he hears my amp he turns it down in the mix rather I am on lead or steel. I am just trying to remove one variable. Its a different band than the videos. Never had an issue with those guys.

Don't know what to tell you, then.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 23 Mar 2014 10:17 pm

Ditch the prima Donna star if you are not enjoying playing with these guys ,it is not worth the hassle.

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 24 Mar 2014 6:09 am

Malcolm May have spoken words of true wisdom! I have been considering that. He has to songs on the Texas charts but his stage presence and attitude will limit his future.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 24 Mar 2014 7:37 am

Jaclyn, played with one like that for many years, great voice,good songwriter but no stage presence and the attitude and manners of a water buffalo, best thing I ever did was leave , wish I had done so years earlier.Good luck whichever way it goes.

Bill L. Wilson · Post by **Bill L. Wilson** » 24 Mar 2014 8:16 am

You can try playing in the band I play in without an amp, but It ain't gonna work. We hardly ever hook up subs, so our system is just 1x15 w/a horn, on each side of the stage, usually I have no monitor at all. So, projection to the bar patrons, has to come from your amp, and 20watts ain't gonna cut it. But I'm old school, and used to hearing the house, from the back side of the speaker. I once played a club here in OKC. that the sound man told me, Ray Charles had all the stage monitors removed from the stage, so he could hear the whole band. When I was a young man, in Dallas, I would go see Soul Bands, at black night clubs, and they sounded fantastic, and they were LOUD, and all the guitars ran thru amps. They were moving air, no such thing as a dead stage in those days.

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 24 Mar 2014 2:00 pm

Hey Bill! Came up the same way. In the 60s and 70s never had anything but amps, PA and no stage monitors. Sounded great 90 % of the time. Outdoors was a chalenge.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Mar 2014 2:38 pm

Jaclyn Jones wrote:We use in ears in the band and that cuts out most of what is comming from the amp.

Well then, I'd say that's probably the reason your amp's too loud!

If you're playing a really large venue, more than 500 people, I can maybe see a need for for in-ear monitors. But other than that, I think they're an affectation. People just get on stage anymore and wail away, confident that the "sound man" will smooth over the din and make everything peachy-keen.

I was watchin' a youTube video yesterday, just a guy strumming an acoustic and singing, and he was wearing in-ears?!? Really "professional looking" (yeah, right). Him...his guitar...and these stupid looking dingus-things stuck in his ears.

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 25 Mar 2014 5:21 pm

Hi Donny. The one thing I maybe wasn't clear on is the amp really wasn't very loud. Without the in ear monitors I wouldn't be anble to hear at all. I have to drop the volume sol low that it begins to sound very thin and tinny with the volume on 1 or 2. I was thinking that eliminating the amp fromt the picture would simplify things with out sacrificing tone since it would not me dependent on a mic. I can get a direct feed to the pa as well as a seperate to the in ears. The impression of volume is the singer watching the pretty colored bars on the IPad. He tries to keep them all flat across the board. Every one equal. I know its wrong and you know that but convicing him is not possible. The in ears are at the requeat of the boss so to speak. Lol

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