Sustain

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 30 Oct 2003 7:03 am

I've been playing a few different steel guitars and have come to find that there seems to be more sustain that comes from D-10 steels than what comes from U-12's...Is it the mass of the steel ?...The extra strings ? ...The additional weight of the steel ??...For those who have played a few different U-12's , which brand steel did you find that had the most sustain ? I'm asking this from you folks that have played a few different brand U-12's...I do notice a different tone from 12 string guitars than I do from the D-10 or even the S-10...I'm not sure whether it's the pickups or the steel ...I don't notice as much of a difference between an S-10 and a D-10....Thanks in advance ...Sincerely, Jim

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Oct 2003 8:30 am

I have a Fessy S12U, and an Emmons push/pull S12. They both have sustain equal or better than a D12 Carter I have. Probably it helps that the Fessy is a 1 1/2 sized body, and the Emmons is a P/P. I think this depends a lot on the manufacturer. Older MSAs are known to have a darker sound, and this might be interpreted as less sustain. Also, the pickup may be a big influence on perceived sustain. Double necks may have a brighter pickup on the E9 neck and a pickup with stronger lows on the C6 neck; whereas, an S12 will have a pickup that must compromise between these sounds.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 October 2003 at 08:32 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 30 Oct 2003 9:59 am

I don't really know the definitive answer to that one. But...However.....

I have had a few S12 guitars on a single body and it seems to me that the Carter has a lot of sustain and my MSA Wood "Universal" model, has a lot of sustain, and is not as "Dark" as one would imagine.

I would think that a D10 or D12 would, possibly, have a little bit more because of the mass and extra weight.

If the amp is tweaked right, I can get clean , clear sound , with good string separation from either S12...so. it all depends on a lot of factors........al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 30 October 2003 at 10:06 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Oct 2003 10:41 am

Have you ever noticed that when you play one neck, the strings on the other neck start vibrating? My own pet theory is that those extra vibrations help to increase sustain a little bit. I noticed a very small decrease in sustain when I removed the back neck from my Sierra D-12/10, turning it into an SD-12.

I don't notice a difference in sustain when I switch pickups (which I do frequently, between songs). I have noticed, however, that 10 string pickups generally sound a little bit "tighter" than 12 string pickups.

These small differences have no noticable affect in live performance, in my opinion. Maybe in the studio you would notice them. Neither is significant enough to keep me from playing an S-12.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 30 Oct 2003 12:31 pm

In playing a bunch of LeGrandes in the Emmons booth, I found the single tens to sound better and sustain better (to my ear).
FWIW, they don't make an S12.

But in the end, who cares about sustain on an instrument where blocking is of key importance.

Don Walters · Post by **Don Walters** » 30 Oct 2003 1:30 pm

.. when you play one neck, the strings on the other neck start vibrating ...

seems to me that could happen, but could also cause some cancellation if some frequencies on the other neck do not reinforce some on the neck being played ...

And, if the effect does work, could you get even more sustain from the other neck if the necks were tuned to the same root, e.g. D9 and D6 ?

????

[This message was edited by Don Walters on 30 October 2003 at 04:05 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 30 Oct 2003 2:03 pm

Have you ever noticed that when you play one neck, the strings on the other neck start vibrating? My own pet theory is that those extra vibrations help to increase sustain a little bit.

It's called sympathetic vibration. The lower course of strings in a sitar are for that and if you've ever seen a Bluthner piano, besides the strings that the hammer strikes, most of the notes have another string above them that is tuned to vibrate sympathetically. Kind of like have a bit of reverb or "wash".

What happens on some of the instruments that I've built is, when a rod is struck, all of the other rods on the assembly that have that note in them vibrate sympathetically to the point that I can damp the original rod and the pitch keeps ringing. Then the original rod that I damped will start vibrating again.

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 30 Oct 2003 2:12 pm

Don,

I think the effect would be negligable, since the two necks would only be tuned together when the neck being played was not barred.

On my own steel, I get hardly any sympathetic vibration on my 4th string when I pick my 8th.. On mine, there seems to be almost no coupling between the strings even on the same neck. But then, I don't have an Emmons

Try this with yours... Turn the volume up on your amp, pick string 8, then mute it after about a second... can you hear some high tones still ringing? Touch the 4th string, and they will go away. The first harmonic is the strongest (one octave above) and it barely excites the string already tuned to that pitch.

Your mileage may vary.

Bill

I edited this post to correct the experiment instructions.
[This message was edited by William Peters on 31 October 2003 at 06:24 AM.]

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 30 Oct 2003 7:16 pm

b0b,
I noticed exactly what you are talking about when you say the 10 string has a "tighter" sound than the 12 string...I have the same brand steels in 12 and 10 string...I also have the exact same pickup for both steels...I can play them both, and the 10 string pickup is not only tighter, but it has more punch to it also ..Like you b0b, It's not enough of a difference to make me give up my 12 string...
How do you Williams players like the sustain from your U-12's as compared to other steels ?
Thanks again guys and gals....Jim

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 31 Oct 2003 8:36 am

James-I have had a couple of Williams guitars, a S10 and S12. The sustain on both was very good.

On my S12 Carter , the sustain was also very good. It is good on my MSA S12 "Universal" Wood lacquer body too...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Oct 2003 7:42 pm

There's no lack of sustain on my Williams D-10, that's for sure!

I can slip a ten string pickup into my Sierra S-12 at any time. All other factors remain the same. The difference is hard to describe, but it's like the 12 string is "heavier", has more "load". 10 string pickups seem to have better string definition.

I have never heard a difference in sustain from swapping pickups. Using a different bar can make a big difference in sustain, though.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 31 Oct 2003 8:08 pm

Bobby, thank you. You just brought up a very important point.It is so relevent.

"using differnt bars make a lot of difference in sustain. " Yes , of course , you are right.

I like a real lightweight bar for easy handling, but when I use a heavy bar, especially for slow stuff, the tone AND the sustain is better......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Ron Shepard · Post by **Ron Shepard** » 1 Nov 2003 9:24 am

Is there a way to tell if a guitar has good sustain before we plug in the amps and effects?

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 2 Nov 2003 8:31 pm

Just simply get in a quite room, strum the guitar
without it being plugged in and see how long the strings vibrate.
Do it again when Barred somewhere...
My experience is... the lower registers..
open or barred below the 5th fret seems to sustain the longest....
Every modern pedal steel I have ever played had enough sustain to hold notes as long as I need...
Moon in Alaska

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SveinungL · Post by **SveinungL** » 3 Nov 2003 3:39 am

I feel that 12s has more sustain than 10s.
Both my Anapeg and my Emmons 12 have far better sustain and clarity than the sho-bud professional (D-10)I used to have. There could of course be a buch of reasons for this and not the 12 vs. 10 alone. (And both Anapeg and Emmons are well known for their sustain)

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Thanks Sveinung Lilleheier
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