The Elusive Dominant 7th Chord

[Ray Langley]

IMO, one of the shortcomings of the Sixth Tuning Family (C6, E6, A6, etc.) is the lack of a "real" 4-note 7th chord.

In C6th, for example, we can tune string 6 from C to C#. This gives us a 4-note 7th chord in the lower register. This comes with a sacrifice. We lose the root note on the sixth string. Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a 7th chord in the higher register?

I just watched a YouTube video of a guy who gave a lesson on bending strings behind the bar, on a lap steel. Again in C6th tuning, if we bend the third string at any fret, we convert a Sixth chord into a Dominant Seventh Chord!

The concept seems brilliant. Is anyone else doing this?

[David Matzenik]

Hi ray. Your dead right. But every tuning is a compromise. That is why we have multiple necks and pedal guitars. The best one can do on a single neck is to increase the number of strings. I wouldn’t even think about buying another 6 string guitar. People sometimes think they are easier, but they are actually restrictive. In A6th I tune the 8th string to a flat 7. But there is no reason why one could not put a G on top the way C6th players do. I think a lot of pleasure with steel guitar is a matter of coming to terms with its limitations. But then, those string pulls are really cool too.

[Nate Hofer]

Personally I'm not too hung up on four-note chords all the time. I'm okay with three notes or even two-note chords. Slants baby! The string pull is fine too but difficult for me in the midst of a phrase. I do get a lot of mileage out of the dominant seventh chord you speak of with the low C-sharp for rhythm playing.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Yes 3 notes is enough, for exemple with C6 if you do a slant and play string 2 at the 12 fret, string 3 at the 12 fret and string 5 at the 11 fret you get C, A and D# wich is a F7 without the root, let the root the bass player!

[Jerome Hawkes]

where is this lesson? i've found the behind the bar string pull easier said than done....ie, showing what you "could" do is alot different than what you can do at tempo, etc. the few that i see doing it (effectively) are using that for melody lines/faux pedal effects, (K. Roberts / C. Scruggs & B. Robinson) -certainly not to get 4-note strummed 7th chords. if it was that simple, believe me, someone would have been doing that from the get-go and we wouldnt need all these dang tunings

[Andy Volk]

I use that particular pull all the time but it depends on the genre. For Hawaiian music, the need to damp in and out of a string pull seems to interrupt the flow of the music. Fora more staccato feel, string pulls are way cool!

[James Hartman]

Who needs all those roots and 5ths, anyway?

It is in the nature of most stringed instruments that as we add notes to chords we must sacrifice others. Acceptance is liberating.

Not that string pulls aren't a cool thing.

[Ray Langley]

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9gG_vh3lxM

And another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEqq8wDNRo

The player in the above video uses his left thumb to brace against the body for support while bending.

...one more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWIDoD5eYhE

[Jerome Hawkes]

before the comments start flying... i will say that any technique you can use, if you find it adds something to the music - then do it, dont let someone tell you otherwise or it sounds like cats fighting...
i kind of find Scott (1st video) entertaining - there has been much discussion over the years on his youtube videos, but i think he isnt as off his rocker as many think...if you listen to him. - he reminds me of a dude i knew as a kid..."ACE" - we thought he was cool cause he played (fast, loud & sloppy) guitar & gave us smokes. of course, what 18 year old is so lame he has to hang around a bunch of 14 year olds..and really, who knows, this guy could be making a killing selling lessons to 15 year old kids...while i'm sitting in a cubicle critic.

do a search for these guys for a comparison.
Kayton Roberts
Billy Robinson
Chris Scruggs

that tech still doesnt give you a true lush strummable 4 note dom chord though.

[Ray Langley]

Thanks everyone! Jerome, I now see that it is better used as an effect than a lush strummable chord.

[Niels Andrews]

That's a real benifit of playing a U12, those big chords are not elusive. That is why Maurce Anderson played with three finger picks and a thumbpick.

[Jim Pitman]

Do it on Dobro G tuning - pull the third string a half step to get a doninant 7th.

[Brad Bechtel]

I guess the types of music I play don't require a four note seventh chord too often. I can't think of the last time I played such a chord on purpose.

If you're playing with others, you shouldn't need this sort of thing too often unless you're comping (backing someone else up while they solo).

[Ray Langley]

Thanks Brad, I am listening. Even though the lap steel is not known as a chordal instrument, my goal is to play pretty chord melody solos all alone. I've never played with other musicians. I may take another look at B11th, tuned down to A11th.

I haven't left the house so far this year. So, I pretty much play for my own enjoyment, usually un-amplified.

[James Hartman]

Thanks Brad, I am listening. Even though the lap steel is not known as a chordal instrument, my goal is to play pretty chord melody solos all alone. I've never played with other musicians. I may take another look at B11th, tuned down to A11th.

I haven't left the house so far this year. So, I pretty much play for my own enjoyment, usually un-amplified.

You should check out the Leavitt tuning, if you haven't yet. Fat chords galore, and an excellent model for solo arranging in the two books Mike Ihde has published for this tuning.

[Ray Langley]

Hi James. I am beginning to think that what I am looking for in a six string tuning may be unattainable. IMO, the Leavitt tuning require even more complex "chord grips" than C6 or C6/A7. Here is a review I wrote of Leavitt tuning. Although it can be beautiful in the right hands, it's not for me.
==========
Review: “A Different Slant” by Mike Ihde

From a website:

“If you have found it difficult to play Big Band
music and other complex Jazz Standards on your Lap Steel Guitar,
Mike Ihde and Bill Leavitt have found the solution.”

“The "Leavitt Tuning", (from low to high) is C#-E-G-Bb-C-D
It's definitely different and you'll be amazed at all the altered 3
and 4 note chords you can play. The really special part of this
tuning is that there are NO SLANTS NEEDED to play all those
beautiful songs! For those who think they have heard everything…”
==========
The CD and tab booklet contains ten songs:

Tenderly, Where or When, Someday My Prince Will Come, The
Girl From Ipanema, Moonlight in Vermont, Blue Hawaii, Have
You Met Miss Jones?, When You Wish Upon a Star, Satin Doll,
and Misty.

Price: $20, including shipping to the U.S. This includes a CD with
all the backing tracks, and the tab booklet for all the 10 songs.

An additional $13.00 will get you a CD of Mike performing the songs.

This set can be ordered from the store at the Steel Guitar Forum:

http://pedalsteelmusic.com/music/mikeihde.html

Here is some additional information from Mike Ihde:

“My own web site www.mikeihde.com has my new guitar
book and others as well. You can go there to hear some
of the Leavitt Tuning in action and I suggest people do if
they're not familiar with how great it can sound. Go here...

http://mikeihde.com/pubs.htm

and click on "Listen to samples" under the Different Slant
book image.”
==========
First Look: I was surprised to discover that a copyright notice does
not appear anywhere in the 21 Page Tab and Notation booklet, nor
in/on either of the CDs! If I were Mike, I would jump on that little
oversight, right away.

The standard musical notation and tabs are all hand-transcribed. This
must have been quite a time-consuming task. It takes most of us a
long time to do this with the aid of music transcription software and
a computer. It is not as easy to read or to follow along as commercially
printed files, but it is useable. There are 4 measures on each line so the
size is marginally large enough for my own sub-standard vision.

In every other scheme for presenting tab/notation, the chord symbols
are at the very top of each line. This particular method used by Mike
has the tab on top, then the chord symbols, and finally the notation. I
find this quite confusing to follow. My mind keeps trying to read the
tab on the next line below the notation.

The author will send out the tab/notation of a single song to anyone
who requests it. Who else does that these days? I have posted his
arrangement to “I’ll Be Home For Christmas” in the Leavitt folder in
the group Files Area at:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/La ... %20Tuning/

If you would like to see a side-by-side comparison of the most common
chord forms, in the C6/A7 and Leavitt tunings, refer to the document
“C6A7vsLeavitt” in the above folder.

Twenty dollars for ten songs sounds like a very fair price. If you like
what you see in this booklet, you can order individual arrangements
for $3 each from the author. A list of these 75 songs is also included
in the above link. In other words, you don’t have to order another book
of 20-60 songs to get the 3 or 4 that you actually want to learn.

The Leavitt tuning is very close to the C6/A7 tuning. Only two strings
are different. If you want to try this out, you can use the existing set
of strings on your C6 instrument.

The one major question that my own mind keeps asking is: “If this
tuning is so great, why is almost no one using it, even after having
been around for 20 years?” There are a few (very few) virtuosos
who are using this. The author, Mike Ihde, is without a doubt a
master of arranging and harmony. Group member Roy Thomson
has a couple of courses on it, although I have not seen them, so will
not comment. Musical genius, Bill Hatcher, has expanded the tuning
from 6 strings, to 8, to 10, and finally to 12 strings! He has posted a
few incredible beautiful pieces to the Steel Guitar Forum, over time.

***Note: With Bill Hatcher’s permission, I have posted the links
to 14 of his incredibly beautiful solo performance pieces in this
tuning, to the LapSteelGuitar group.

Here is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly in Mike’s own words:
==========
“To me, the Leavitt Tuning is a pianistic approach to lap steel. You
can harmonize every melody note with 2, 3, 4 or 5 notes on ANY
chord type.

The problem is you have to use unconventional string grips like
strings 2, 5 & 6 or 1, 4, 5 going to 2, 4, 6 etc.

On 6 string Leavitt, you can't slide from one voicing to another very
often, you're always changing grips on each melody note, which is
why I think of it like a piano player. The dangerous part of all that is,
unlike C6 where you almost can't play a bad note, if you pick a wrong
string, OUCH, it can be a really bad note.

As with anything new, it's give and take, you "give" up some of the
sliding of Hawaiian but "take" the hip Jazz voicings of the Leavitt
and you don't have to use any slants.

When I want the Jerry Byrd sound I go to C6/A7, when I want Jazz
chord melodies, I go to the Leavitt Tuning.”
==========

*** End of Quote by Mike Ihde***

Bottom Line: A particular tuning can often be made-to-order for some
styles of music. Open Major Tuning are popular with bluegrass, rock,
and blues players. Slide Master, Derek Trucks, uses Open E for
everything.

If you want to play complex jazz harmonies, then this is what the
Leavitt tuning was designed to do. This tuning is more popular with
those who know a lot about music.

At $20, I feel this set is a good value even if you don’t want to learn
the Leavitt tuning! Why? Mike Ihde is a musician’s musician. His
arrangements give you the chance to study and learn from his many
years of teaching musical theory and harmony. You can use his
ideas and talent for arranging in ANY tuning.

Ray Langley
March 3, 2009
Updated with corrections on March 4, 2009

[James Hartman]

Fair enough, Ray. Didn't know if you'd ever given it a shot. Clearly you have given it ample consideration.

While it's not a tuning I use in general, I like it for what it is and enjoy reading through the arrangements in Mike's books. Haven't put the time in, yet, to be able to play freely in that tuning. I suppose my background playing (non-steel) jazz guitar makes the "pianistic approach" more familiar territory than it might be for some folks. There's definitely a trade off in losing some characteristic steel guitar sounds.

[Ulrich Sinn]

That's a real benifit of playing a U12, those big chords are not elusive. That is why Maurce Anderson played with three finger picks and a thumbpick.

Nils -

is your Universal 12 the same setup as in this thread?
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

since you mentioned in another post that your guitar might have been the last one that Reece set up.

I'm asking because some questions popped up in my mind about pedal 4.

Thank you!

[Niels Andrews]

That is not my set up at all. My P4 raise strings 5 and ten one full tone. Which gives you a 7th in B6 mode, but a half pedal will give you a 7b of course. My LKR gives me a b7 in B6 mode. But the beauty of the Uni is I just release my RKR and I am back at E9 with all the big Dominant 7 chords you want.
B6 or Bb6 or C6 it is only a fret or two. I guess the point a lot of players miss is that as Reece always pointed out, It is one big tuning and you always have access to all of it. Maybe the difference is if you want to play intro's and fills with a band you can play two note chords on your D-10, but playing those big Reece Anderson and David Wright Chords, I believe the Uni is the way to go. There are many great D-10 players out there, don't get me wrong, just for guys like me, starting without a bias, the 12 string Uni is the way to go.
Where did I leave my flak jacket? That's right the last posting.

[Brian McGaughey]

IMO, one of the shortcomings of the Sixth Tuning Family (C6, E6, A6, etc.) is the lack of a "real" 4-note 7th chord.

Ray, I understand you're talking a triad plus dom 7th at once in harmony, but you can slide your way a fourth up from where you are using the 7th transition by playing only the 3rd and the 5th of the chord, letting it ring and sliding up 3 frets which then gives you 5th and dom 7th of the chord you first struck.

Up another 2 frets give you the 3rd and 5th of the new chord a fourth up. A 6 string dobro doesn't allow for but a few 3 or 4 note plus color chords, and figuring the work arounds by way of creative melodic runs or slides is the fun for me.

RE string pulls, on dobro for several songs I tune the 3rd of the chord (the higher B) down to A which gives an sus2 chord, then pull it up to minor or major 3rd which is like rocking on to the A pedal while on the B pedal of a pedal steel.

I can't speak with intelligence on a 6 string 6th tuning, but perhaps you can pull something out of use.

[Ray Langley]

Thank you Brian! Those are good ideas. I will use that.
I have created a two foot long fretboard diagram for C6 tuning to hang on my wall. I did this as an aid to help me in arranging tunes for my lap steel.

I can visualize your idea immediately on paper.

[Mike Neer]

The dominant 7 chords and all of their altered versions provide an opportunity to keep the bar in motion, as generally these chords have a "going somewhere" predisposition anyway. Don't get hung up on finding the full chord, but use it as an opportunity to use the full neck to create the sense of tension and resolution that is so important in that harmonic cadence.

[Paul Seager]

I agree with Mike here. Whenever I fool around on with a Jazz blues, I like to play a 3 note chord + inversions and then occasionally hit the 7th note or a two noter hinting at a 7th and then move to the next chord. I also tend to use a minor 7 in place of the IV just before moving back to the I chord. As Mike says, 7ths suggest a musical need to resolve to something so I don't worry too much about this on a C6 tuning.

I started off on E7 thinking this was richer but abandoned it fairly early on in my learning curve, once I'd realised that C6 offered more of what I needed musically.

\ paul

[Robert Murphy]

My tuning is the A11 from low to high A C# E G B D. This includes the dominant 7 plus a diminished and minor chord. Great for backup and that's what I do.

[Jack Aldrich]

Curious.... I use a C6 with a Bb on sting 7 - (from bottom) G Bb* E G A C E G. The * means that this string varies between A, Bb, C, C# depending on the song. The tuning with C# is what Jerry Byrd called "C6/A7" in his book. Thanks to Alan Akaka, I play "Adventures in Paradise" in this tuning. Lots of nice, rich chords, yeah? A Bb on that string gives me a dominant seventh chord.