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Topic: String buzz and other sounds |
Deirdre Higgins
From:
Connecticut, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 1:18 pm |
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Greetings,
I have a question regarding non musical sounds and how to control them.
I am a beginner, and have been practicing diligently daily for maybe a month now, I feel I have improved greatly from the first day except these questionable sounds.For example; I play an open chord then place the bar back down on the strings for the next chord, I get annoying string buzz,then if playing a single string say for Amazing Grace the first string, fourth fret starts open, then bar on the first string back to open I get buzz going down on the string and off.
Another sound is the steel finger picks when they contact the strings,I hear them more on single notes.
Finally the sound I notice when sliding the bar along the strings say from the third fret to the ninth I hear the sliding noise in the amp.
I would appreciate any tips you can offer.
Thanks All,
Deirdre Higgins |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 1:37 pm
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With those notes down near the nut, you may not be damping well enough with the left hand fingers. The timing of the damp is critical, especially at the first three or four frets due to the higher string tension close to the nut.
Finger pick noise can be caused by a number of factors including tone settings, pick gauge or weight, and general pickup quality. Without actually playing the guitar it is hard to say what is producing string slide noise. Could by the particular string winding. I'd play with all the settings on both guitar and amp looking for the "sweet spot."
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 1:51 pm
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Deirdre,
I also struggled with the pick noise you describe. I didn't really notice it until I heard a track I recorded (Amazing Grace of all things, slow stuff is so hard sometimes). It exposed a flaw in my right hand blocking technique. The strings needed to be dampened in that critical moment right when the pick touches the string but before the note is plucked.
I cured it with Jeff Newman's excellent Right Hand Alpha video. Yes, he is demonstrating the technique on pedal steel but he does it better than anyone I've come across. The technique he describes is valid regardless of whether it's used on pedal or non pedal steel. You can easily modify the excercises to suit your needs. This will also help with string noises as you slide the bar along the strings.
It will take a lot of practice but you seem very dedicated.
Good luck! |
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Deirdre Higgins
From:
Connecticut, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 2:07 pm
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| Darrell Birtcher wrote: |
Deirdre,
I also struggled with the pick noise you describe. I didn't really notice it until I heard a track I recorded (Amazing Grace of all things, slow stuff is so hard sometimes). It exposed a flaw in my right hand blocking technique. The strings needed to be dampened in that critical moment right when the pick touches the string but before the note is plucked.
I cured it with Jeff Newman's excellent Right Hand Alpha video. Yes, he is demonstrating the technique on pedal steel but he does it better than anyone I've come across. The technique he describes is valid regardless of whether it's used on pedal or non pedal steel. You can easily modify the excercises to suit your needs. This will also help with string noises as you slide the bar along the strings.
It will take a lot of practice but you seem very dedicated.
Good luck! |
Thanks guys,
My problem with palm blocking is that I have very long fingers, and it puts my fingers at quite an angle to pick. I have been trying to dampen the first string with the middle finger of my left hand as I put the bar down trying to hit the string first with the finger, that helps. I watch Jerry Byrd videos and he's just moving the bar everywhere so effortlessly on and off the strings Wow!
As far as sliding noise I am playing with heavy Open E tuned strings the sixth string being a 0.58 I don't know if that causes the noise. I've notice if I can manage to palm block the strings when I move the bar or kind of take it off the strings it helps. |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 4:58 pm
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As you are learning, steel guitar is mostly about the noises you *dont* make. Keep at it, if you're hearing them then there's hope for you... It's the folks that don't hear them I worry about.
_________________
Too much junk to list... always getting more. |
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 5:02 pm
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The first thing Newman covers is the right hand's angle and position relative to the strings, then he details how to strike the strings from that hand position. Long fingers are no problem once you get the hang of it. Mine are also long and it felt funny at first. He explains it in such detail that I learned some subtle yet important aspect every time I watched. His drills and excercises will have you sounding better in no time.
Byrd is definitely the master. Watch his right hand closely. He's like a magician, he's so smooth with it. His right hand barely seems to move. Very economical movements, honed by years of experience. It allows his bar movements to seem to be almost silent because he has such control with his right hand.
I also discovered that when I got the right hand properly positioned, my tone just seemed to "jump" into place. Without a proper right hand, I found I was always fighting my tone. It really is true that tone is in the hands! |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 5:16 pm
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if you have been playing for a month - just keep at it, working out 1 source at a time - there is no quick fix for this, it could be many things. everyone who has ever picked up a steel has gone thru this - it will drive you nuts for maybe the first year (i'm guessing, can't remember....it just bit by bit disappears from your playing.
some tips:
-tip the bar, don't lay it across all the strings - if you are only playing 1-2 strings the bar should only be playing those strings.
-bass strings cause a lot of noise they are wound and it doesn't take much to excite them
- you are going to get noise...some noise - you'll never eliminate it completely. there might be just a few players i can detect zero noise from. you don't eliminate it - you control it to the best of your ability.
if you can't hold on to the bar (most beginners can't - its round, heavy and slick):
- walk around with the bar, while you are watching tv, etc and just get use to it. kind of roll it around in your hand and back to proper playing position. sit in down on a table and pick it up - do it again, x100 etc - what you are doing is having it like a part of the hand.
- you must hold the bar properly - search for advice from Jerry Byrd on this subject
and Stephen makes a good point - don't "worry" too much about it up front - work on sounds you are consciously making. as long as you don't have bad technique, that stuff will get better.
you can't just say, however, this is comfortable to me and that other technique is not, doesn't feel natural, and so i'm doing it my way...ah, thats a recipe for long term trouble if you want to actually become a serious student / player.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Deirdre Higgins
From:
Connecticut, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 5:44 pm
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Thank you Everyone! 
You are all such an inspiration, I find steel players to be some of the nicest people I've met.
Deirdre |
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John D. Carter
From:
Canton, Ohio, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 7:18 pm
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| Deirdre, I too have very long fingers and it does indeed make palm blocking more difficult. Because of that, I have worked hard on blocking with the left (bar) hand. I find it easier. Unwanted noise is a problem that all beginners go through and if you stay with working on the problem you will find a solution even if it is your own unique solution. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 8:32 am
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It will take most people more than a month to start getting an acceptable sound from an instrument. (I know, I once lived next door to a trumpet student). Another thing is don't practice constantly. Get away from it and the sound you want to hear will slowly come into your mind and transfer to your hands. (muscle memory). Thirty minutes of enthusiastic practice beats two hours of drudgery and frustration. Good technique, in part, comes from being comfortable with the instrument and you will slowly feel like you are "willing" the instrument to do what you want. I know this sounds mystical, but most good players I know have gone thru this.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Jim Williams
From:
Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 10:26 pm
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I have struggled with both issues you mention. Sometimes the pick noise can be amplified by too much high response on your amp settings. As far as blocking it is still a problem for me, but I've about come to the conclusion that the best method varies with the individual and the material you are playing. I don't think there is necessarily one "right" method. Whatever works best for you is what you should use. I block with palm, picks and the left hand at times depending on the situation. I also have found that sometimes a day off from practicing seems to benefit me. I play c6 so my biggest string is a 36 or 38. I do believe the heavier strings would be more susceptible to being noisy if your blocking is not right. To me, blocking is probably the hardest part of playing the steel.
_________________
GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal. |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 14 Feb 2014 8:01 am Re: String buzz and other sounds
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| Quote: |
| I am playing with heavy Open E tuned strings the sixth string being a 0.58 |
Sometimes string buzz can be a setup issue caused by unlevel string tops at the nut. In your case, if your guitar was originally setup for lighter gauge strings, then the top of the thicker 58 may be above the rest and cause poor or no contact for other strings with the bottom of the bar. The closer to the nut, the worse the effect tends to be.
_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
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Stephen Baker
From:
Lancashire, UK
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Posted 18 Feb 2014 1:32 pm
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Last Wednesday I was playing with a bass player and so was playing with the amp turned louder than I normally would playing alone. In fact I often practice un-amplified. I noticed unwelcome pick attack noise as I played and on the recording playback. When I got home and logged on the forum I saw Deirdre’s post.
When I studied my right hand technique I noticed I wasn’t hitting the string with the middle of my finger tip so therefore the metal finger pick was hitting the string slightly edge first. I moved them round on my fingers so they hit more square on and the problem was solved. Steve |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2014 12:29 am
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Well, I have to crank out once in a while...
| Quote: |
| - walk around with the bar, while you are watching tv, etc and just get use to it. kind of roll it around in your hand and back to proper playing position. sit in down on a table and pick it up - do it again, x100 etc - what you are doing is having it like a part of the hand. |
I read this stuff pretty frequently, "You can practice scales while you're watching TV!" And "You can work on picking patterns while you're watching TV!" I just think if watching television is so important you can't turn it off to play music, you should just watch TV. It Is Said, by the people who Say Things, that it takes about 10,000 hours to become really expert at something. There are a lot of people watching TV who already got this, they're lapping the field on the way to becoming Grandmasters or something. It takes an expertise beyond mine to tell the Grandmasters from the Merely Stupefied, it's a subtle thing I guess.
One of the better pieces of advice I've heard, and I try and hammer it into the solid-bone heads of teenage guitar students, is:
Always play music.
Play your exercises as though they really matter, pay attention to what you're doing. If it doesn't sound good, why not? And fix it. If you're watching TV it'll probably slide right on by, but if you're the only noisemaker in the room and the noise sucks, well then. Ahem. Now, when I started playing steel seriously, I though that 30 years of slide guitar would be really helpful. Parts were, but the most useful transfer credit had more to do with playing LOUD electric instruments. And that is:
Blocked, muted, silence is the default position. And you only let the notes you want peep out for the duration that you want them. Rather than start with a big slidy slippery out-of-tune noisy mess and then trying to tame it, start quiet, play the notes you want - only those - then lock it back down. It's kinda more... philosophical than where-do-I-put-which-finger-where. That matters too of course; but it's surely harder to figure that stuff out if some Hollywood Beautiful People are waving body parts around and cracking jokes on your TV.
Steel guitar for the most part is not a really blasting instrument, there's a lot of things to keep track of. I believe it used to be somewhat customary on the "budget" country star's tours for the steel player, and sometimes the bass player, to be the backup or even the primary bus driver too. Everybody else was too drunk all the time, there may be a point there somewhere. |
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Deirdre Higgins
From:
Connecticut, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2014 6:47 pm Becoming discouraged
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I have tried every possible way to block, I just can't get the knack of it. If I contort my palm and 3rd and 4th fingers to block the upper strings I have trouble picking as it puts my fingers in an unnatural position.
My middle finger is four inches long to give you an idea of the length of my fingers.
I am still using the open E tuning that came with the guitar and Morrel's "Easy lap steel method" It has about a dozen songs for 'E' tuning. Maybe I'm going about everything all wrong I don't know.
I want to thank everyone who has offered advice.
Deirdre |
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Stephen Abruzzo
From:
Philly, PA
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2014 9:05 pm Re: String buzz and other sounds
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| Tom Pettingill wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I am playing with heavy Open E tuned strings the sixth string being a 0.58 |
Sometimes string buzz can be a setup issue caused by unlevel string tops at the nut. In your case, if your guitar was originally setup for lighter gauge strings, then the top of the thicker 58 may be above the rest and cause poor or no contact for other strings with the bottom of the bar. The closer to the nut, the worse the effect tends to be. |
Many of the lapsteels I've bought had this problem. It it doesn't take much discrepancy to cause string buzz in the lowest positions.
Fortunately, an easy fix on most instruments. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2014 11:33 am Re: Becoming discouraged
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| Deirdre Higgins wrote: |
| I have tried every possible way to block, I just can't get the knack of it. If I contort my palm and 3rd and 4th fingers to block the upper strings I have trouble picking as it puts my fingers in an unnatural position. |
Without hands on teaching you'll need to just slow down and not force it too much or the frustration can overwhelm. Just watch the JB videos and see how he relaxes his hands to makes the most out of minimal movement and effort. No stress or strain going on there.
If palm blocking is the problem and your pinky and ring fingers are sticking straight out then you may need to curl them under your palm, but they may be too long for that and allow sufficient blocking. Long nails may not help.
Bottom line, get together with any decent player asap and get this (most likely) minor issue behind you. Probably a 5 min. fix. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2014 3:37 pm
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| Quote: |
| I have trouble picking as it puts my fingers in an unnatural position. |
"Natural" is another one of those ideas... there's very little natural about playing steel guitar, underarm guitar, saxophone, piano. It's really quite unnatural until some muscle memory starts to ease in, and anyone who tells you they can teach the "natural way to play" is after your money. Fingers are basically just fish flippers that lost their webbing, it's amazing anybody can drive or compute or play music or tennis using these strange bald ape body/sack'o'goo things we tote around. "Natural" for me would be to lie around the cave while the other guys hunted down wooly mammoths then attempting to score a mammoth burger using only my natural wit & charm.
"Playing through the pain" is a bad idea when it comes to hands, but "unnatural?" Well, sure. |
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Jim Williams
From:
Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!
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Posted 3 Apr 2014 5:33 am
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Deidre, old post I know, but I was curious, are you still playing open D or Open E? I noticed you mentioned that 58 so I assume so. Arrangements for these tunings tend to have more open strings I have noticed. You might check out a dobro video or two on this. When you put your bar back down, the fingers behind the bar need to hit the strings a tiny bit prior to the bar, which dampens that annoying sound you are hearing. Don't put too much credence in dobro slide technique though as they sometimes want the bar sounds in there. I fight the same battle on the slide sounds you do and it drives me nuts. I have two amps and it is much worse in one than the other so I probably need to do some amp tuning, but my right hand blocking still needs a LOT of work I admit.
I'm not trying to derail your progress on your current tuning, but at some point along your journey you might want to at least try C6 with appropriate gauged strings. A lot more material out there written with electric lap steel in mind. You mentioned Jerry Byrd though, if you're following his course, you'll get a taste of several tunings as you go.
_________________
GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal. |
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Deirdre Higgins
From:
Connecticut, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2014 7:33 pm
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Hi Jim,
I am still fiddling with Open E only because that's how the guitar came strung. I have a beginner songbook written for E tuning so I've been trying to learn the half dozen or so songs. Today I ordered a set of strings for 'A' major tuning because I am going to go through Jerry Byrd's course right from the beginning.
On one of the strings I had to choose an alternative, C# called for a .017 gauge and I didn't see that one on the forum store so I chose .018 I hope it will be Okay. They did have .017 for pedal I didn't know if it would work on a lap steel.
I think most of my picking noise is from picking to deep into the strings. I colored the picks black to see the wear marks, my index finger picks fairly square on but the middle tends to rub more the side.
_________________
Jerry Byrd Fan |
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Jim Williams
From:
Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!
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Posted 4 Apr 2014 7:40 am
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The 18 should be fine, and the pedal steel string would have been as well.
With strings you mainly want to make sure you are using a plain string where you need a plain string or a wound string where a wound string is called for, and in some cases that can be a matter of taste on a lap steel.
You don't want bronze wound strings on an electric instrument, and if you are using a stainless bar, you want nickel strings not stainless steel. Most plain strings are nickel unless they specifically state that they are stainless.
Here is a link from an old thread regarding palm blocking that might be helpful.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=200502&highlight=palm+blocking+made+easy+beginners
There are several posts in this thread from Dave Magram which together contain a complete set of tips and exercises for palm blocking. I haven't gone through all of them but the information looked very good. I plan to copy and paste the tips and print them to go through step by step.
As far as going too deep into the strings, you might try bending your picks up at a bit more of an angle at the end.
Actually, according to the Right Hand Alpha video that has been recommended to you, if you use his technique you should be picking somewhat across the side of the pick more so than the tips. If all you wear is on the end it would indicate that you are holding you hand in a flattened out position, which is not conducive to palm blocking.
The first time I used the right hand alpha video, I got too hung up on doing exactly what was being shown and it discouraged me because it was so awkward. I have since forced myself to apply the basic principles he was teaching though, with slight adjustments, and find that it becoming more natural, and helpful. Jeff was a great player and an excellent teacher.
I figured out, at least in my beginner's opinion, that no two people have exactly the same hand size and shape, so one person's method might be slightly different from someone else's, but both get good results.
I'm learning (or trying to learn) pedal steel as well, and honestly blocking on the six string is becoming much easier and natural after practicing it on ten closely spaced strings.
I play mainly in C6 and have Doug's first C6 songbook. That has been extremely helpful to me as there is a variety of songs there that will test different aspects of your playing technique. I can't recommend Doug's books enough when you get around to C6. I also just got his E9 pedal book yesterday and it looks equally good.
I also plan to get the Byrd course at some point and go through it. I have played around a bit with the A major tuning on another steel I have, and to be honest would probably play that if I didn't like C6 so much. It's pretty easy to find your way around in.
As you get further along with your studies, you will probably want to consider picking up a second steel, so if you want an alternate tuning, you don't have to restring your guitar or compromise on the string gauges. For this purpose I don't think you could beat one of the SX lap / console steels for the money ($119 or so plus shipping). I would not suggest the little Rogue steels like I have...it is not really a bad little rig for $80, cut the scale is extremely short. Going back and forth from a standard scale to a 20 inch one can cause problems for beginners like us in my opinion.
Happy stealin!
_________________
GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal. |
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Jim Hoock
From:
Highlands Ranch, CO.
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Posted 6 Apr 2014 9:22 am
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Dierdre...I am also a beginner, with about 5 months time on you. I was so frustrated with these same issues that I thought it was a lost cause. Like you, I spend alot of time on the Forum looking for answers. The advice here is invaluable. But I can tell you from experience, stick with the fundamentals talked about here, soak in everything else you read, and it magically works itself out. In six months I have gone from this horrible sound to something I am proud to have someone listen to. My best advice, based on very limited experience, is to stay very, very loose. I still have trouble with getting tense, and it has a bad effect.
Hang in there.
Jim |
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Deirdre Higgins
From:
Connecticut, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2014 5:44 am
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Thank you Jim and Jim!
It's good to hear from another that went through this so as I don't feel like it's just me. 
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Jerry Byrd Fan |
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