Have a question on diminished chords.

Bob Doran · Post by **Bob Doran** » 9 Oct 2003 6:00 pm

First, thanks to everyone for the nice summary of augmented chords.
You guys are great!
My problem is that i have a chord book entitled "E9 Tuning Pedal Steel" by Ron Middlebrook. I am sure you know it- the one with the orange cover.
Anyway, he lists the construction of a diminished chord exactly the same way we showed the augmented chord- that is,for G diminished, if you are at the 10th fret: pedals A and B down and Knee raise (ABF or ABR).
Someone please tell me this is a mistake. No way can the diminished and augmented chords be constructed the same way at the same fret.
Also would someone mind putting up the basic diminished chords for E9 in key G?
Thanks again.
Bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Oct 2003 6:42 pm

It's a mistake if it says A+B+F gives anything other than an augmented chord.

The two diminished positions on E9 are F lever alone and 1/2A + B + Eb lever. The example I gave for the augmented thread used 1/2A + B with the Eb lever to get diminished chords (or their close relatives the 7b9 chord)

There is a 3-note diminished triad spelled
1 3b 5b
and a 'diminished 7th' chord (4 notes) spelled
1 3b 5b 7bb.

Raising E to F (the tonic note) is the same as flatting the 3rd and 5th -- you just go back one fret. If you play E on 3,4,5 on fret 12, to convert to Edim you go back to fret 11 and raise the E on 4 to F. So, in the open position, it's Fdim.
Starting from the A+B position, if you 1/2 pedal the A pedal you flat the 3rd, lower the E's and you flat the 5th. If you play 3,4,5 on fret 12 (or open) you have an A Maj chord with the A+B pedals. If you 1/2 pedal A and lower the E's you have Adim. If you add the 1st or 7th string (adds the 6th tone of the scale, which is the same note as 7bb in the formula above) you'll have the 4-note diminished 7th form.

Hope this isn't too confusing.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 09 October 2003 at 07:46 PM.]

Bob Doran · Post by **Bob Doran** » 9 Oct 2003 7:20 pm

Not at all confusing.
More like enlightening.
But that was a very confusing error in the chord book.
I appreciate your taking the time to help.
Bob

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Oct 2003 7:27 pm

Larry again is correct.

A diminished chord is made up of 3 minor thirds stacked one upon the other. A minor third is 2 notes 3 frets apart. As we stated in your other thread, an augmented is two major thirds stacked one upon the other. A major third is two notes separated by 4 frets.

Note: The F knee lever used alone will produce a 3 note diminished (as some call it). While it does contain 3 notes of a diminished chord, in reality it is not a diminished at all; Rather it is a 7th chord. Others will srongly take me to task on this, but I stand on it. And example is strings 5, 6 and 8 at the 6th fret with the F knee lever engaged. That is G7th. But is often called Bdim. Erroneously IMO.

You won't go wrong by following Larry's suggestions.

Much good luck to you,

carl

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 10 Oct 2003 4:23 am

Carl-
If anyone were to take you to task, it would be a moot point. A G7 chord contains a Bdim triad.

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 10 Oct 2003 4:43 am

Again, Larry Bell comes through with a great and thorough explanation!

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 10 Oct 2003 7:00 am

part of the confusion here is triad versus a
chord with 4 notes in it. A c maj chord contains 3 notes, a C7 contains 4 notes. The dim triad will "rhyme" with the band playing a dim chord or fit a 7th chord. A dim 7th (4 notes) removes that confusion, I think. Steel guitar plays lots of 2 (intervals) & 3 string harmony. Gets involved as you add more
notes to the chord. Didn't Jeff (I mean Newman not Lampert! sorry about that.)used to say an a mi chord "sounds like" a C chord etc. Not exactly a complete Harmony 1 course, but it helped lots of pickers along their way.[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 10 October 2003 at 06:26 PM.]

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 10 Oct 2003 7:40 am

Jeff Newman taught me to use the 3 note diminished "chord" and let the Bass player cover the root. That's worked for the last 20yrs and nobody ever complained!
JE:-)>

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 10 Oct 2003 8:43 am

strings 5, 6 and 8 at the 6th fret with the F knee lever engaged. That is G7th. But is often called Bdim

Actually, off the top of my head, it would be reasonable to use that chord in any of the following contexts.

G7
F dim
D dim
B dim
Ab dim
Bm7b5
Dm6
C#7b9
E7b9
Bb7b9

I'm sure there are others as well. The only way to correctly identify a chord is based on the root, which in turn is based on the key, chord progression, and context that the chord is used in. Which is to say that a Bdim is NOT the same as a Ddim or C#7b9 or G7, even though they may share notes. They will sound very different depending on the context and root. Not that that would matter in most country songs, but it does matter a lot in other genres (jazz, classical, etc.)

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Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 October 2003 at 10:06 AM.]

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 10 Oct 2003 11:36 am

Bob Doran,
I highly recommend Buddy Emmons's "E-9 Vocabulary" course. It covers a lot of bases.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 10 Oct 2003 11:43 am

Jeff,

Dear friend,

Would the following notes:

C#
A

E

(A and B down, picking strings 5, 6 and

be an E13sus4?

luv ya man

carl

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 10 Oct 2003 5:37 pm

Oh, dear! Well, I guess it's too late now to worry anymore, but all these years I have thought that those 3 notes you mention Carl Dixon, was the 3rd inversion of an A major chord???(with the 5th as the root {bottom note}) Are we saying an inversion of a chord changes what it is?? (asking Jeff Lampert, or anyone else who has an opinion?)Actually if all the rest of the band was playing E13sus, the A chord would not be a dischord,
played with that situation, would it, Carl D?
The sus is going to resolve to something else.[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 10 October 2003 at 06:42 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 10 Oct 2003 6:54 pm

Doug,

I was being facetitious in joshing with my friend Jeff. Of course it is not an E13sus4. It is simply an A chord. My point was to try to demonstrate the ridiculousness of how far musicians can go when it comes to naming certain chords.

carl

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 11 Oct 2003 10:33 am

One thing Jeff mentioned about chord names. I tend to go along with his thinking. I usually try to name a chord on the root base. Although there are many inversions, I kind of like a root bottom.
Lots of times the bass player is playing the wrong note .
That Bass man on the cover of that magazine with me on my Website, was the very best one I ever had the pleasure of playing with. Every note he hit was always the strong note , he made every chord I played stand out.
I learned a lot from him. Julius Martze Balog was his name. I'll never forget him..................al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Rhino · Post by **Rhino** » 14 Oct 2003 11:18 am

I have generally been afraid of diminish chords because of my lack of understanding about their use. I can feel comfortable about using an augmented 5th for a change from a I to a IV, but can someone please explain the correct usage of diminished chords?

Rob...

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Oct 2003 12:26 pm

Rhino,

In a very over simplified way you can start off thinking:

1. Augmenteds resolve up to the next chord.

2. Diminished resolve down to the next chord.

Try this:

1. Bar at the 8th fret.

2. Pick strings 5, 6 and 8.

3. Slide down 1 fret letting the strings sustain.

4. Then slide down 1 more fret letting the strings sustain.

5. Now slide down 3 more frets and engage the A and B pedals. Repick 5, 6 and 8.

If you heard something that did NOT sound right you are correct!

Now do the same thing only, in step 3 and 4 have the F knee lever engaged as the strings sustain.

It should sound much much better. The reason for this is, you are using a "dim" chord twice as a passing chord on your way to the 2nd inverstion of a C chord. This "downward" resolve is heard in music all the time. And it is the so-called diminished chord that gives it that great harmonic timbre.

So to repeat; in a most general and over simplified sense, dim chords are used to resolve down and augs resolve up. While this is NOT always the case, it will get you started.

May Jesus guide you right,

carl

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 14 Oct 2003 12:28 pm

Carl my man
Though I realize you were being facetious when asking if the A chord could be considered an E13sus4, we must realize that the chord the entire band produces is what the composer intends and what the audience hears.

So, in your situation above, if the bass player were playing an E note, and the piano or guitar were playing an E11 chord voiced so as to complement the stacking of the A triad by the steel, yes... the steel player is playing his part of an E13sus4 chord.

Jeff's earlier allusion to the chord substitutions achieveable with the simple G7 triad you offered is an example of the ambiguous nature of minor third intervals and tri-tones in particular.

In your "G7" voicing, it's only a G7 if the bass player says it is by hitting a G note. Otherwise, it's anyone's chord, baby.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 14 October 2003 at 01:28 PM.]

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 14 Oct 2003 2:15 pm

It is a very old "story" that when Bach first performed 'Prelude and Fugue in D minor', and he held a full diminished chord for several bars, many of the parishoners left the church in fear. That, my friends, is the awesome power of the full diminished chord.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Oct 2003 5:10 am

Herb,

You are absolutely correct. And without realizing it, you made the subtle point (I was trying to make) perfectly.

The composer determines the chord. NOT the spelling; unless the player is usurping the composer. Which I believe is an infringment.

This is why I have great difficulty with, "the bassist determines the chord".
NO way, IMO

Thanks dear friend,

carl