Scale Length continued....

[Tony Boadle]

Following my recent 'scale length' thread (30th Jan...scroll down to Rob Jackson's suggestion), if I was to reduce my scale length to 22", could I still use a 22.5" fretboard? i.e: does the reduction of 1/2"
make a significant difference to the fret positions, bearing in mind that bar position isn't an exact science? (Well, not when I play wearing my Guinness Goggles LOL)
Also, would the 1/2" reduction mean a slightly thicker gauge string set?

[Tom Pettingill]

does the reduction of 1/2"
make a significant difference to the fret positions

While 1/2" might not seem like a lot, it would throw you off one whole fret at 24 and a 1/4" off at 12. And yes, the shorter scale, the thicker a string needs to be. John Ely has a good page on strings and a chart that you may find helpful http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/gauges.php[/code]

[Loyal McAvoy]

Actually one doesn't need a fretboard to play pedal or lap steel, one can pretty much do whatever they want. You had better have a great ear though.

[Rob Jackson]

Just saying what Tom is saying, but in a different way - short answer is "sorry, no"

The 12th fret should appear at exactly half the scale length, as has already been said. So for 22", obviously it'll be 11", and for 22.5", 11 1/4" as per Tom's comment.

As for being in the dark, I always feel a bit like that without frets!

Don't forget though, that you'll be able to adjust intonation till your tuner / ear / heart's content on the 6 strings going through the Multibender.

FWIW, we installed the Multibender bridge first, strung that up with the two additional strings that were going to be on the outside of the bridge (either side / high and low), intonated those using the saddle adjustments, and that gave us the exact position where the new fixed "mini bridges" (either side of the Multibender) needed to be - hope that makes sense!

[Rob Jackson]

Just for info, my wound 30W string (E) is almost 1/8" back from the 20 (G#) plain next to it.

If you think of a typical bridge on a Telecaster we're used to seeing that those wound strings like to be set back a little.

Of course good steel players (AKA not me) are used to compensating for this with slants or even bar pressure (?) etc., plus you don't see many (any?) steel guitars with adjustable intonation!

[Tony Boadle]

OK, all points taken. I guess you learn something every day. (Remembering it seems to be an increasingly
difficult task!)
One new fretboard added to the project shopping list, I'll be in touch soon, George.
PS: How about a bigger pics of that 8-string, Rob? Especially some bridge close-ups!

[Rob Jackson]

I found this string tension calculator very useful for working out gauges and so on:

http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html

For example, if you look at perhaps the most often discussed string in the history of pedal steel (:-)) the 3rd, high G#...

Typically that's an 11. Even for the reduced lap steel 22.5" scale length, that's going to have around 24.3 pounds of tension. To get it up to an A, you need to increase the tension to around 27 pounds - that was just too much for me without risking some kind of wrist RSI!

Go to a 22" scale, and you're looking at a slightly less tension difference and lever travel = 2.8 pounds difference.

However, with 22" scale and a 10 gauge string, you're right down to 19.3 pounds for the G# and the change in tension to get it up to an A is almost half a pound less than the 11 at 2.4. Lever travel therefore comes down significantly too.

I was breaking 11's quite a bit, but haven't broke a 10 yet. Yep, there's a tone / sustain compromise, but that can be addressed with some subtle compression for example.

In the other thread I listed all the other string gauges. I spent quite a bit of time coming up with that. I really should get out more, and maybe even play some music

Good luck with the project. I'll try and post some pics of my steel soon.

[Tony Boadle]

OK, Rob. Bearing in mind the finalk decisive plan: 22" scale, 6-string lap steel, open E, 'bender on 1st, 2nd and 3rd as per Deusenberg norm.
Suggested string gauges from the 'Cambridge School of Lap Steel Science' would be much appreciated!

[Rob Jackson]

For some reason, I thought this was an 8 string project.

Low to high?

E
B
E
G# -> A
B --> C#
E -> F?

Well, with that tuning, I'd be tempted to try a standard set of 12-52s ideally with an unwound G string. Be nice if you found something "off the shelf" that worked.

[Alan Brookes]

No you'll have to make a new fretboard. But why reduce the scale length by such a small amount? It won't make any difference to your playing.

To give you an idea of what even a small amount of error can make, I rarely use open strings, but I noticed on one of my lap steels that when I did they were out of tune. So, out came my ruler and the reason became obvious. Someone had removed the fretboard and put it back so that it didn't buffer up to the nut by about an eighth of an inch. Yes, an eighth of an inch makes a noticable difference. Half an inch would make an enormous difference.

Actually one doesn't need a fretboard to play pedal or lap steel, one can pretty much do whatever they want. You had better have a great ear though.

Which brings up another point. You shouldn't rely too much on fret markings. The weight of tone bar and how much downward pressure you put on it can throw your note out. With a regular guitar there's a limit to how much vertical movement you can impose on the string, because it touches the fret in a very small distance, and that distance is compensated for when the guitar is built, but a steel guitar has strings a lot higher, and that means that you could, if you were heavy-handed, push the strings very sharp above the note intended.

[Tony Boadle]

Thanks, Rob. I've made a note of that for the big day.
Alan...scroll back up for a shorter scale explanation, it's all about lever travel according to Rob.
And as to 1/2" making a big difference, there's a Jasper Carrot joke in there somewhere!

[Rob Jackson]

The scale length I came up with was based on my more E9 flavoured tuning. I'll do some more quick calculations a bit later. You may well be fine with 22.5" with open E.

My problem string was mainly the top G#, which doesn't feature in open E. Also the travel on my B string lever was too much for me, but I'm using a 17 gauge string on there.

The original idea was being able to use a standard E9 set of strings which still worked out cheaper than 8 custom gauges. However, I ended up totally tweaking some of the strings anyway...

I'm sure it would be possible to have something workable in my tuning with 22.5", but it seemed safer to commit to the build that we knew worked for sure on the plank prototype.

Anyway, I'll work out some more tensions - I found that to be a good indicator of lever travel and how much pressure they're going to need.