tone suck??

Steve Cappella · From: Massachusetts, USA

what is meant by "tone suck" with regards to volume pedals? Does it have something to do with loss of treble at low volume levels?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

That's exactly it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Will Cowell · From: Cambridgeshire, UK

Steve, it's caused by the pickup being loaded more for high frequency notes and partials than lower notes, when the volume pedal is at a low setting. The lower the pedal setting, the worse the effect. It only happens with a passive (pot) pedal. Active pedals like Hilton and Telonics are immune to this effect.

If you can't afford an active pedal, you can get a little relief from the problem by adding a small value capacitor - about 22nF should do it - between the "hot" terminal of the pot (where the signal comes in from the pickup) and the slider - the centre terminal, where the signal is tapped off to go to the amp.

Will
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

I wonder if a buffer like the Lil Izzy or a Black Box can cure that? I have a passive Goodrich pedal and I realized that it suck some gain and high.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Right. Any buffer will solve that. Of everything I've tried, none sound as good as the Izzy.
I've never tried any of Brad's gear.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

Great! I ordered an Izzy, cant wait to try it! I also have an EH Knockout pedal which work nicely too.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Chris (and anyone else confused by Will), in simplified terms, a volume pedal has an interaction with the pickup that is different when the pedal is off or neay so than it does when the pedal is open (affected by the impedance of the pickup and the cable, as well as the varying state of the pedal).
A buffer becomes the first interaction with the pickup, and changes the load to one not bothered by cable or pot.
The capacitor allows the highs to bypass the pot, while sending enough THROUGH the pot so it still controls the volume.
There's a lot more to it, and I bet Stephen or Craig or Tim or Brad could glaze MY eyes over.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i understand enough to get by at this point, but once again i thought it might be more helpful to speak to a brand new forum member in plain english terms rather than 'look how smart i am' terms. (directed more at will than you this time, lane) now i could be way off base. maybe the new guy is a genius. 'scuse me.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

"Tone suck" is a strange, sometimes over-exaggerated problem (similar to cabinet drop) as it doesn't bother all players. I know a lot of players who prefer pot pedals because they think a slight tonal change is actually beneficial. Also, it's good to keep in mind that buffered (powered) volume pedals and other buffering devices didn't even get main-stream use until the '70s, so practically all the great stuff recorded up until the '70s by players like Emmons, Brumley, Myrick, Charleton, Hughey, and Rugg, was recorded using a pot pedal! Actually, the roll-off of treble is slight, and in many cases most of it can be recovered...simply by turning up the treble control on the amp. Whoa!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

And pot pedal tone suck is dwarfed by cheap cable tone suck. But a buffer kills that as well.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I have used the Little Izzy, Black Box, Revelation pre, Hilton and Goodrich Ldr pedals. The best tone I've ever heard is from a simple pot pedal and low loss cords with just enough length to trim the highs to a pleasing sound. Guitar pickups were designed to sound good with the loading presented by pot pedals, cords, guitar amp inputs. The vast majority of all the classic great sounds were created using pot pedals. I hear no tone suck in Lloyd Green's classics, Curly Chalker's More Ways To Play, Ralph Mooney's classics like Texas Waltz and list of great sounds recorded with no steel buffers is nearly endless. The pot pedal setup produces a different sound than a buffered setup. To some extent, neither is better than the other, they are just different. I prefer the classic sound which comes from a pickup being designed with a load to sound a certain way. You may prefer the buffered sound. Since the ear's frequency response varies based on sound intensity, it's erroneous to think that a mathematically even tone response is pleasing to your ear. But if it suits you, use it. The sound IMHO is more sterile with the Little izzy, or active pickups, or buffers. I don't consider the pickup loading a bad thing, or even a thing to be buffered out. Also, changing the pickup loading affects the phase response and that alters the tone, good? Or bad? Is a matter of personal preference. Look at all the great tones coming out of Sound City in the 70's and 80's with all those miles of unbuffered cords. Tone suck there?

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

I have used my onboard volume pedal on my Ritt since 09 and on my Derby a year before that with no problem. I use a Deusenburg 15 degree pot. It has never failed me. I can't tell any tonal loss at the top 10% of the pedal
where most VP are used. The pot comes as a 250 K. I added a 250K resister to the input and it works well.
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Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy.

Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

There are several conditions that may contribute to tone loss or tone suck. Greg Cutshaw mentioned a little-known part of the problem: "Since the ear's frequency response varies based on sound intensity. . . "

It was scientifically proven back in the 1930s by Fletcher and Munson, doing research at Bell Labs, that the sensitivity of the human ear changes with frequency. So it may or may not be the volume pedal, it may be the human ear. Here is a link to more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

Operating an audio system at low impedance solves a great many problems. Guitar pickups are high impedance mostly because of those six dreaded words, "We've Always Done It This Way" No competent broadcast or recording engineer would consider using a high impedance microphone; too many problems, too much tone loss. There is no excuse for operating a guitar system at high impedance. Keep in mind, to eliminate "tone suck" the solution is not necessarily a buffer, the solution is whatever it takes. . . to operate at low impedance. Les Paul successfully experimented with passive low impedance pickups before anybody ever heard of a buffer. His problem was: if you use passive low impedance pickups, you need an expensive "step-up" transformer at the amplifier's input. Not to match impedance, but to present the proper level to the amplifier. (the input of an amplifier couldn't care less what impedance drives it, but it requires the proper level.) With a good buffer, such as a Freeloader, a Matchbox or a Li'l Izzy you gain all of the advantages of low impedance, but the signal remains at the proper level.

You probably paid a lot for your guitar, if you're not operating low impedance you've never heard all it has to offer.

Respectfully,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Of, course some folks LIKE the sound of tone suck. Jimi was the most famous, but he had plenty of company in preferring the tone of twenty-some feet of cable.
In every amp I've EVER played through, I've had to dial back the highs; I don't buffer for them. I buffer for the clearer tone and greater string separation.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Will Cowell · From: Cambridgeshire, UK

I've noticed Chris's responses to posts on here tend toward the abrasive/aggressive, which is a pity. Chris, it's high school maths, I carefully avoided it and really, it's very elementary what I said.

Lane has it correct: any buffer will cure it. No, it's not solely down to the ear's different response at lower volume levels - altho' that plays a part.

Chris, most of us on here try to get along by learning from each other, not by challenging all the time. Compliments of the season to all!

Will
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Chris' usual sarcasm has gotten a bit sharper since som sort of medical adventure has left him deaf, or nearly so. Bound to be frustrating.
But Chris also has company in a lot of folks who regard all the workings inside the amp (or anything electronic) as "indistinguishable from magic." Not that there's anything wrong with that. I doubt that what I'm learning about this stuff will ever do anything more for me than satisfy my curiosity, which is nearly boundless).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

It would be crazy to think that we all hear sound the same way...there's some serious differences in things like ear aand head shapes and sizes, and the inner ears and all the machinery there probably formed differently too. Also 'experience', eq hangover, the room reflections, etc.

Factors are endless, and the ear is supersensitive to subtle tone differences. I saw some curves of the frequency response of different preamp tubes and on a graph, the curves were barely indistinguishable. Put them in an amp and it was night and day between some of them, but there was just enuf spread on the measured curves to correlate.

Ken Campbell · From: Ferndale, Montana

Chris's replies are great. Wouldn't it be great if we could all just be ourselves without some one making some value judgement. In my world Chris gets to be whatever he wants. So does everyone else.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Most of the pedal buffers are simply a unity gain amp stage with a higher than normal input impedance.
On all the the solid state Peavy amps late 70's and beyond I have simply changed the input impedance to 470K by swapping out a resistor. I don't recall exactly what it was originally - 270k is ringing a bell.
A magnetic pickup loaded by a resistance forms a low pass filter of sorts. The corner frequency decreases as the resistance is lowered. Finally it starts to get into the 5khz and below range which is about the top end of most guitars.
Tube amps typically don't have this problem. Most of them have a 1Meg resistor across the gate. Tubes are very high input impedance on their own.
Unplug your guitar and put a meter across the tip ring to measure the input R of the amp. If it's lower than 470K trace it down and see if you can locate the input resistor and change it. It gets a little tricky in that you might be altering the gain of the first stage - most likely lowering it - compensate by turning up the volume. Some amps will be capacitively coupled in which case the measurement becomes more complex and can't be done with an ohm meter.

David Shepack · From: New Jersey, USA

[quote="Craig Baker"]There are several conditions that may contribute to tone loss or tone suck. Greg Cutshaw mentioned a little-known part of the problem: "Since the ear's frequency response varies based on sound intensity. . . "

It was scientifically proven back in the 1930s by Fletcher and Munson, doing research at Bell Labs, that the sensitivity of the human ear changes with frequency. So it may or may not be the volume pedal, it may be the human ear.

I would like to add that speakers, and amplifiers don't recreate highs and low frequencies at lower volumes.

My band didn't use the tone controls on our guitars. We left them all on full tilt and made adjustments on the amplifier. We figured that the tone controls had a capacitor hooked to the potentiometer, and it just cut the highs. We thought it better to give the amp a better signal to work with.
Does this make sense, or were we ill informed??????
_________________
Maverick
Fender Blues Deville
Flatiron Mandolin
Gibson RB4 Banjo

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

David, if you were playing Fenders, the knobs on the amps did the same things, but different capacitors behind each knob (a simplification, but not too much).
I'd say that the best approach is the one that gots you the best tone.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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