Confused about changer types

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

In learning about pedal steel mechanics I understand the basics of what's going on underneath, but I don't quite get the different changer designations. What exactly is meant by single raise/single lower - double, triple and various combinations thereof? Looking at the changer ends with various assortments and placements of rods connected to the fingers doesn't offer a clear explanation (to me anyway). Is there a simple way to explain this? From what I gather, the top row of rods on the changer are raises and the bottom row are lowers. Is that right? I also have a question about the difference between "push-pull" vs. "all-pull" if someone wants to tackle that one. Thanks.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Hi David,

This website should answer all you questions. Check out the "Learn" tab in particular.

http://www.steelguitar.com/
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

One thing is tough to find printed material on is a critique of the different changer designs.
One almost has to own one of each to realize the plus/minus.
Take this with a grain of salt as I haven't owned (nor do I know) everything.
In general, designs that stop the raise finger closest to the end plate will hold tune better over a wider range of temperature. These include the Emmons push pull, some ZB's I think, and the Kline. There are others. Some argue this makes the guitar sound better. The down side of this changer system is it requires a heavy duty linkage, ie., weighs more and the undercarriage can be quite cluttered and more difficult to understand if you need maintenance. Also in a push/pull system a raises dominates a lower on the same string and you can't get a 1 step raise to combine with a half step lower for a net half step raise for example, (without complicating the linkage anyway).
The rest of the designs are a variation on the "all pull". These don't have the disadvantages mentioned above but will tend not to hold tuning of pedaled notes as well over a wide temperature change.
This is because the changer stops must be at the pedal axles which are linked with a good distance of metal rods that expand and shrink with temperature. Advantages are lighter weight since you don't need such a stout rod to push with, and a tidy easily understood undercarriage. Versatility and ease of copedent change is another advantage. Raise helper springs can be added to make the pedal actuation easier. Universal tunings have a lot of changes and will be more commonly found on an all pull guitar. Some argue all pulls don't sound as good since the changer mechanism is not as solidly in contact with the body for all cases.
Then there are a few I've had no experience with like "pull/release".
Xraise/Ylower refers to the number of opportunities one has to raise or lower the same string with different pedals. For example a triple raise/double lower can have three different tunable pedals to raise the pitch and two more different tunable pedals to lower the pitch.
Hope this is helpful.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

The short answer to your single/double/triple question is that this denotes how many actions (raise or lower) can be performed on one string. A 'standard' E9 setup requires a C pedal raise, an F pedal raise and an E lever lower, all on string 4. Therefore the changer needs to be a minimum of double raise, single lower.

Sho-Buds with brass barrel mechanisms are single/single but can actually accomodate a virtual infinite number of changes per string so this doesn't count when considering the concept of number of raise/number of lower.

Hope this helps.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

looking at the chager end through the window should make things perfectly clear if you can count.
probably not that important for you at the moment.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Chris, while not that relevant for anything beyond deciding what guitar to purchase, this info still is pretty useful, in that it's common jargon, and newbies still wanna know what we're talking about. I know I hate feeling left out when others throw around terms I don't know (and then I often throw them around like everyone already knows them: I apologize for that tendency)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Mike:
Thanks for the tip! I had visited the SG website before but somehow missed that page. The animated drawings are especially helpful.

Jim:
Thanks for the detailed info. That does help sort out some of the differences and explain the mechanics a little better. I don't currently have a pedal steel guitar in front of me to scrutinize, but do have two Sho-Buds headed my way. One is an earlier Pro I with updated undercarriage and the other is a Professional with the older R&B system. I'm sure that looking at and operating the mechanisms up close will clarify things significantly.

Jon:
Now THAT makes sense. The single/double/triple issue refers to the number of changes per string. Even I can understand this concept. Than it simply becomes a matter of sorting out which pedal/lever does what to which string. The copedent charts seem to document this very nicely. If I simply count the number of upper/lower changes on a string, I should immediately know what type of changer is on the guitar, correct?

Chris:
I have looked at changers through the endplate window, but couldn't make much sense of it until now. Knowing what changes are on each string explains the configuration of tuning bolts/rods and their placement in the two rows of finger holes and vice versa, and those placements will also explain the changes on each string. Eureka!

Lane:
I've actually had some fun learning all the technical psg (there's one) jargon: chord grips, copedent, ET, JI, etcetera. It challenges me to do the research instead of bothering people with silly questions that are easily discovered with a little digging. It's like putting a giant jigsaw puzzle together and I'm thoroughly enjoying the process.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Lane said: "...and newbies still wanna know what we're talking about".

On the subject of jargon, shouldn't there be a corresponding term delegated to seasoned players? Possible monikers could be "hotshot", "topgun", "steelpro", or "oldfart". Sorry about that last one. I couldn't resist.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

David, on an all-pull guitar, you look in the window below the changer: the upper plate will have from 1-5 holes, that's how many independent raises a string can support. The lower plate will have from 1-3 (AFAIK) holes, that's how many lowers.

There are some exceptions. The Excel has something like 4 or 5 plates, some are raises, some are lowers, and it makes my brain hurt.
Also, there's a simple gizmo that can allow a hole on a lowering finger to actually pull on the raise finger (or any plate can pull on its neighbor)¹

I'd urge someone just starting to get ANY decently built and decently set up guitar and just start PLAYING the damn thing. There's one cat on here now who's spent a lot of time fussing over which guitar, and just switched again (it doesn't matter who, others have blazed the same frustrating path), and if he'd spent a year PLAYING his first or second guitar, he'd be a lot farther down the trail.

¹ I'm gonna do a video on installing them, Tom Bradshaw invented them, they're clever
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

David, on an all-pull guitar, you look in the window below the changer: the upper plate will have from 1-5 holes, that's how many independent raises a string can support. The lower plate will have from 1-3 (AFAIK) holes, that's how many lowers.

There are some exceptions. The Excel has something like 4 or 5 plates, some are raises, some are lowers, and it makes my brain hurt.
Also, there's a simple gizmo that can allow a hole on a lowering finger to actually pull on the raise finger (or any plate can pull on its neighbor)¹

I'd urge someone just starting to get ANY decently built and decently set up guitar and just start PLAYING the damn thing. There's one cat on here now who's spent a lot of time fussing over which guitar, and just switched again (it doesn't matter who, others have blazed the same frustrating path), and if he'd spent a year PLAYING his first or second guitar, he'd be a lot farther down the trail.

¹ I'm gonna do a video on installing them, Tom Bradshaw invented them, they're clever
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Lane:

Geez, I was just starting to get the hang of it and you had to throw in the AFAIK thing. Still trying to figure that one out (A = A pedal?, F = LKL?, A = A pedal, I = (?), K = RKL?.

Otherwise, I get what you're saying. Curious about the Tom Bradshaw gizmo you mentioned. Yes, I realize the best way to learn the instrument is to start playing. Right now I'm just killing time, waiting for the two Sho-Buds to arrive. The Professional needs some major adjustments, but the Pro I is ready to fly.

I played a student model Emmons years ago, but never got into the mechanics at the time. I barely remembered my chord grips and rudimentary changes from back then but scouring through the SG Forum posts and YouTube videos has refreshed my memory.

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Jon:

Gotcha. Hadn't thought of that. My next project, then, is to start studying endplate windows and scrutinizing the used and unused holes to calculate the number of raises and lowers that would ultimately determine the type of changer, no?

Actually - thinking about it that way, the number of rows of changer holes (used or not) in the upper, then the lower sections is all you'd need to know what kind of changer you have. For example, three rows of holes in the upper changer fingers and two rows of holes in the lower changer fingers would be a triple raise, double lower changer - if there is such an animal. Am I even close?

Somebody ought make a dang chart showing this. Should be simple enough. These things are awfully confusing without one.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Your last statement is correct. And triple/double is quite common.
The thing is, this is not terribly important stuff to know. When (if) you are a point of advancement where you can make educated decisions regarding the addition of pulls because you find that you really want them, then you need to know if the guitar can even accommodate them. But a pro level steel will have the changer capacity to do what you need to learn and to play.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

David, AFAIK is net talk acronym for ,as far as I know.... Winking

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Oh... duh. Rolling Eyes

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Is there confusion between "changes" and "changers"?

If there is, an F lever, or an A pedal is an example of a "change"...A change is a set of bell cranks affixed to a rotating cross rod, which act on pull rods which in turn moves the related set of changer fingers at the changer itself which rotates in turn to stretch or loosen the specific set of string to hit the different pitches, creating the desired "chord change".

Sorry if I picked up a wrong impression from the diverging concepts referenced earlier.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Right. A "change" can refer either to an individual pull, or a group of pulls commonly occurring together. Whether it means singular or plural we glean from context.
The "Franklin Pedal" means, for example, dropping 5 & 10 to A along with 6 to F#. But I don't have that change on my guitar.
But it can also mean a single pull.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Tom:

Original question was about the physical changer mechanisms on a pedal steel - design and capacity regarding number of raises and lowers available. Of course, that has also brought about some discussion on pedal/lever string changes and all-pull, push-pull concepts. It's all tied in together so the conversation is open to whatever you feel may apply.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Cool....just wanted to make sure...

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