10 Pedals and No Knees: What setup to use?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Sep 2003 2:16 pm

I have a new student starting with me next week who has a D-10 steel with 10 (yes, TEN) pedals and 0 (Yes, Zero) KLs. Other than suggesting that he add KLs, what setup would you advise him to put on it? In otherwords, how best to put the KL changes onto the floor? He can put as many of the pedals onto the E9 or C6 neck as he wants.

So far, here's what I'm thinking. Since pedal A is used often with the F lever, put the F lever into pedal 1 position. Then the A pedal next to it as pedal 2. Of course, then pedal 3 must be the B pedal. Now for pedal 4 we could either put standard pedal C or else put the D lever (E to Eb change) as pedal 4 so it can be used together with B for sevenths. That leaves the B&C combo out though. We could forget the E to Eb change and just use the 2nd string for Eb (works ok for Lloyd, eh?) and just put C next to B. Or we'd have enough pedals to replicate B all over again as pedal 5 and make pedal 6 the C pedal. So we'd have two B pedals.

As for C6, I think he could get along with standard pedals 5, 6, and 7 with something to lower his 3rd string. Obviously 5&6 have to stay together. Maybe lower the third on the 1st of the C6 pedals (whatever # that ends up being) then pedals 5, 6, and 7 in order.

Clear as mud? Any other suggestions appreciated.
jc

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 7 Sep 2003 5:29 pm

Thinking about it sort of makes you appreciate knee levers, doesn't it?! First of all your student is going to use both feet most all the time on both tunings. Most every early pedal pusher must've have done this lots! I used both feet on my C6th Fender 400 (5 pedals.....no knees!)late 50s.
My 1st KL was hooked to my first ShoBud, a crossover, Bobbe got for me the summer of 1968 as I recall.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Sep 2003 6:12 pm

Thanks, Doug. Obviously, what I'm trying to accomplish in the setup is to avoid use of both feet as much as humanly possible...

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 7 Sep 2003 6:19 pm

both feet on pedals with volume only in the hands makes sense to me

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Sep 2003 11:30 pm

P1: E's to F
P2: B's to C#
P3: G#'s to A
P4: E's to D#

I'd probably have G# to G and B to Bb in there somewhere. Put E to F# on the last pedal to get C pedal stuff.

I'd look at Sneaky Pete and Ralph Mooney's setups for other ideas, but this gets the E9 thing pretty well.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
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Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 8 Sep 2003 1:29 am

There you go, Jim. Larry's got it covered!

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 8 Sep 2003 6:08 am

If using both feet is to be avoided as much as possible the solution would be to add 1LKL and 1RKR to the guitar but then it was to be pedals only

With all those pedals and no knee levers it would be a big handicap to use one foot only.
Having the E-F lever next to the A pedals might first seem ok since that is a very good sounding combination that is used a lot but problems will arrive when one tries to go from A+F to A+B or the other way around. Or when adding the E-F to A+B for an augmented chord. The use of both feet would allow for some interesting things like R.Mooney's setup or something else.

So with 10 pedals and no levers.
E9
ped1 3&6 G#-G
ped2 5&10 B-C#
ped3 3&6 G#-A
ped4 4 E-F# & 5 B-C#
---
---
---
ped8 4&8 E-F
ped9 2Eb-D-C# & 9 D-C#
Ped10 4&8 E-Eb

This would make most E9 material playable.
Changes Ped8 thru ped10 can be placed next to each other if one wants the smooth shift on strings 4&8 but one would sacrifise the maximum number of useful changes.

Bengt Erlandsen

Craig Holden · Post by **Craig Holden** » 8 Sep 2003 6:52 am

On my old 8-pedal Fender 1000 I have 1st pedal raising E to F, then the A,B,C pedals, and the 8th pedal lowering the E's. Have to take your foot on and off of the volume pedal, but its not such a bad skill to develop; in fact it's become a useful technique for me even when I play my other guitar which has knee levers. Also keeps the volume pedal from being a "safety valve". Let those clunkers be heard! ;-)Just my $.02

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Sep 2003 7:12 am

The late Lew Houston (Conway Twitty's first major steel guitar player), played a Fender 400 with only 4 pedals. No knee levers.

Most ANY one who ever saw and heard Lew, will tell you he did not need any knee levers. He was THE most awesome steel player I have EVER seen; in his incredible talent of playing on only 4 pedals what most need much more to do.

His feet literally danced across all combinations of those 4 pedals with petacarpal dexterity that would make a Podiatrist stop and take a second look.

And his ability to control the volume by wrapping his right little finger around the volume control was a sight to see. If you did not see it, (but only heard it), you would swear he was using a volume pedal.

There are NO words that can tell you of this man's ability on the PSG. We have lost a truly great player; in his untimely death.

May Jesus rest Lew's soul.

carl

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 8 Sep 2003 7:37 am

When I met Jerry Byrd @ the studios of WLW in April of 1949, he didn't use a volume pedal, but as Carl mentioned used the controls on the Rick. Come to think of it he didn't use any other pedals either!

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 8 Sep 2003 9:37 am

Jim and Larry, you got it right. One foot can be used a lot in those configurations. Not as smooth as with knee levers, but it will work. Even help in technique of playing more smoothly.

Doug-You oldtimer, You very well know that us oldtimers Played for years and years without pedals, and when we got pedals, used both feet a lot.

And did not use a volume pedal. We had the volume control and tone control right on top of the guitar and used our little finger , and it worked very smooth on slow stuff. On fast stuff, you just set it and forget it, and get the Accents with your hands.
Ask Jody he knows a lot about that......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 08 September 2003 at 10:39 AM.][This message was edited by Al Marcus on 08 September 2003 at 10:41 AM.]

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 8 Sep 2003 6:55 pm

Hi Jimbeaux....Lots of good comments and suggestions given in the above posts. I would ask the student what he/she was interested in learning. IMHO, I cannot see how anyone can play pedal steel fluently without knee levers. I am aware they are learning so why not get them learning the correct technique and approach from the beginning. I would recommend at least 4 KLs and 2 vericals (1 for C6 and 1 for E9th)if money is no object.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 08 September 2003 at 08:05 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Sep 2003 8:47 am

A "new student" should not be learning without knee levers, IMHO.

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Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 9 Sep 2003 10:36 am

Ideally, the student should not go too far without getting to know knee levers, but there is a lot to be said for starting without a volume pedal (and even though it sounds like this may be a Fender PSG, which has a volume knob within finger reach, I wouldn't suggest that they start using it a lot at first, either), so let them use both feet. Although knee levers certainly make it easier when you know and understand what it is you want to do with them, it is probably simpler for a real neophyte to get familiar with the idea of bending one or more strings to change the chord or scale if it is all done the same way, i.e. with the feet. Coordinating two hands and two feet (not to mention eyes and ears) is challenge enough for most people, without asking them to involve their knees, as well! It also may not be good advice to tell this person to go out right now and buy another instrument with knee levers -- they already have this one, which is what the question is all about -- and what if they don't decide to stick with it? A lot of great music has been made with pedals and without knee levers -- I'd give them a chance to hear themselves making some of it, and THEN show them how knee levers can make it easier and better -- and then you probably don't want to have them tackle sticking knee levers on this one (Fender 2000?) -- that next instrument can be a good "modern" one, and it will sell itself![This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 09 September 2003 at 11:43 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 9 Sep 2003 11:14 am

Jack,
I think you hit the nail on the head! Very perceptive.
I appreciate all the above comments, too. His first lesson is tonite and we'll spend a good part of it discussing all of this.
Thanks!