Sound man kills tone

James Jacoby · Post by **James Jacoby** » 15 Dec 2013 9:21 pm

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Sorta reminds me of my years in playing live television shows. The several different guys with cameras on the floor plus the head cheese in the booth...... NONE had any idea what a fiddle, lead guitar or steel guitar was. They couldn't identify by sight, let alone actually hearing what they sound like.

It was not uncommon to see the taped show as it was aired only to discover that not one of the featured instruments was EVER shown on the screen during their minimal solo or duet. AMAZING!-----Ray, Someone ought to send those words of wisdom to all the TV stations! How many times have I, and many other musicians, thought those same thoughts, while watching the bass player play when it was actually the guitar or steel solo! They ought to make all the sound, and video people they hire for a music show, at least, know how to identify the different instruments! IMO

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 16 Dec 2013 5:01 am

You guys are correct most of the time. However, I am a sound guy who is also a musician and I feel that if you have no musical background you should NOT be messing around with sound gear and mixing.

When I worked in Nashville as an engineer, I always went out into the studio and listened to the sound of the instruments and tried to capture the tone and the texture that was there on tape. I always encouraged the guys to come into the control room and tell me if adjustments were needed. It is amazing what you can accomplish when you work together.

I can tell you that after Nashville the number of seesions that I played on were not alot, but the engineer never walked into the studio. He would just start cranking eq, effects, etc.

A comment about micing amps. It was the only way we did it in the old days and I never had a complaint from Buddy, Hal, Lloyd, Weldon, Stu, Pete, or any other steel player that came through.

Finally, in the tape days there were two people at the controls. One was the engineer, whose job was to make sure that the tape machines were in good order and working correctly. Their happiness was a 15KHZ sine wave looking good at 30 ips. The other person was called the mixer and that was his job. He ran the board. There is a difference between the two.

Rich Sullivan · Post by **Rich Sullivan** » 16 Dec 2013 5:17 am

Craig Schwartz · Post by **Craig Schwartz** » 16 Dec 2013 6:21 am

Hi Jaclyn, Heres what buddy cage does , I can testify that this works very well and who cares what a sound man does at this point as long as youre able to play it well

Its a behringer 150 watt powered monitor for about $150.00 on his left that he can just be happy playing and doing his job, the extra inputs make it a cherry setup. Its actually a very lightweight missing link that I`ve found to work well anywhere especially on the smallest stage ever.

I use mine on a mic stand instead of mounting it on a Pedal steel.

disregard the THIS arrow, The monitor its on his left.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 Dec 2013 7:49 am

ok I'll say it, many sound men ( supposed sound men) are no different than Harmonica players.

There is nothing worse than getting to a showcase early for a full sound check, then when it's show time, nothing in the monitor and probably nothing coming out of the mains and if you are on Dobro "mic'd" this is now a bad day.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 16 Dec 2013 10:54 am

The last band I was in the sound man was only worried about his DB meter. He always whined that the steel was too loud. He also had no idea what a good mix was. But that's what you get when the sound guy is married to the band leader. The stories I could tell would be endless and hilarious but I don't think I should make them public. I just feel all your guy's pain.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 16 Dec 2013 11:03 am

But that's what you get when the sound guy is married to the band leader.

You should be complaining about the band leader, not the poor bloke she corralled into running sound. Don't blame the person mixing if they were given the job by someone who did not want to pay a competent professional to do it. You WILL get what you pay for...

Imagine if most of the bass players we encounter were hired, not because of their musical ability or knowledge, but because they were married to the singer or the guitar player's sister, and although they had not one clue about playing bass they were expected to figure it out on the job. Would you blame bass players in general or would you have the perspective to recognize the true culprits?

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 16 Dec 2013 11:24 am

Hmmm........Musicians "of a certain age" will remember when bands mixed with a Vocal-Master from the stage;when the 150 watt 150 pound Peavey SP-1 was state of the art,and when sound "engineers" weren't seen outside of theatres,arenas,and Red Rocks.Things sounded OK then.So howcum there's all this Star Trek/Buck Rogers technology with an (allegedly!) highly trained professional at the board and it sounds WORSE way too much of the time.I'm sure part of it has to do with the sound guy moving sliders around just because he can,but a lot of it has to do with players turning it up to 11 just because THEY can.

Sean Borton · Post by **Sean Borton** » 16 Dec 2013 11:42 am

This is not a "steel only" problem. Sound off-stage and/or really poor soundmen (or women) can kill any instrument, not just the steel.

How I approach this is the exact same for Pedal Steel as I do for lead guitar.

When sound is run off stage or in a really small venue, I simply do not leave it at the mercy of the person with control of the board. I point my amp to the audience, tilt it back a little so they don't take a direct hit and control my own dynamics. I NEVER play over the lead vocalist, or over any other solos - therefore I come through really loud and clear, only when I am suppose to.

When on a large stage (large club, festival, concert, etc...) then I always leave it for the sound man - and put the trust in them. If I don't know the person - I will nicely suggest the best way to mix my instrument (mic position, strip eq, and effects). Most techs appreciate this communication - when it is friendly

Just my 2 cents.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 16 Dec 2013 1:35 pm

Dave her husband gave himself the job because he was too cheap to hire a sound man. You really had to live with it to understand it.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 16 Dec 2013 2:07 pm

dave, i'd blame the bass player for accepting the gig. except one of my best friend/bass players who has the van that comes and picks me up.i love him.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 16 Dec 2013 4:29 pm

her husband gave himself the job because he was too cheap to hire a sound man

My point exactly. I have great compassion for you, 'been there done that' as they say, but don't blame the audio profession because of the stupid, selfish acts of, well, stupid selfish people.

Musicians "of a certain age" will remember when bands mixed with a Vocal-Master from the stage

That's right, and we didn't need no stinking monitors (even if we did, they hadn't been invented yet). Mixing consoles did not exist on the retail market, and JBL speakers did not come with boxes, so we had to build our own rig from scratch if we wanted anything bigger than a Vocal-Master. Then Hartley came along with his "PA6A" and cheap power amps and changed the world. Since then anybody with enough money can be a "sound man" because you no longer have to know what you are doing to have the equipment.

I play outdoor shows all summer, and even though it is always a simple band with maybe two vocalists, three times out of four the sound is completely murgolated by the young studs in charge. Even when they mean well and try really hard to look after us, nobody has taken the time to learn about phase coherency, wave propagation, signal chain, headroom, musical EQ, dynamics, etc.. I know they're working dirt cheap because their boss undercut me and a bunch of other folks to get the gig, so it's a crap shoot unless you bring your own and pay them well.

Jack Bowman · Post by **Jack Bowman** » 16 Dec 2013 7:14 pm

Ray Montee wrote:According to Jerry, he explained 'the SOUND MAN' is your worst enemy.

He urged me to never go thro' a BOARD as they know only how to destroy your tonal sounds.

Go ahead and FIRE him. He deserves it.

I agree about going thru the mixer board. The soundman usually pulls down the 160 thru 500 on the equalizer and kills the mids in order to make the vocalist sound better. I've watched it happen before. They can't grasp the meaning of tone or leave it in a natural tone.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 17 Dec 2013 4:19 am

Most bands are too loud right out the gate to get a nice mix.
Usualy I will offset my speakers.
I am also +1 for the the small monitor that I control.
My monitor is a Mackie SRM 150
Rarely do I get my amp miked.

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 17 Dec 2013 7:53 am

Ian Rae wrote:
Ray Montee wrote:Does a sound man have to have any kind of REAL musical education, background or musical apprenticeship?

Sadly, no. But I'm an exception and I mixed live radio and TV sound successfully for many years, and usually managed to find musical guys to work my crews. The bad experiences were broadcasts of live gigs, where another outfit would do the stage sound so we would get blamed for the rubbish in the monitors. But what went to air was always faithful to the artists - we didn't have the resources for a lot of remixing and I'm not giving any trade secrets away if I say that by miking the cabs, setting the faders in a straight line and having a damn good LISTEN before you start turning any other knobs, you will soon get something that sounds like a real band. If you don't like the sound coming from a particular instrument, tough! You're not producing an album - it's what the guy does and the audience needs to hear it.
Soundmen are like musicians...heck, some even ARE musicians. Some are good, applying their knowledge and skills tastefully. Others are not. Simple as that.

A few things I've noticed are signs of a good soundman:
- at venue BEFORE the band
- has cables, mics, DIs roughly in place & is not trying to set up gear while the band is loading in/setting up
- wants to know each musician's name
- listens to you play before trying to dial in your channel
- asks you if there's anything you need from him (or her, I guess...I rarely encounter women running the soundboard
- knows the gear you are playing thru, or if not, asks about it
- lets you know how to signal him if you need something mid-set

I'm far more concerned with the stage sound. Better it sounds to me on stage, the better the band plays & interacts. What's out front is not within our control, so I don't worry about it.

David Cubbedge · Post by **David Cubbedge** » 17 Dec 2013 9:05 am

I'm glad somebody posted that "Far Side" cartoon, otherwise I would've! I've been carrying that cartoon around in my case for decades!

I've worked with all kinds of sound men, some better than others, but it seems the worst ones were all frustrated musicians....

Rex Thomas · Post by **Rex Thomas** » 17 Dec 2013 2:28 pm

IMHO, Larry Bell NAILED it, word for word.

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 18 Dec 2013 10:04 am

Just last night I had a steel player who had seen us at a club who has their own sound man come up to me and say, Man you guys sure have a better sound when you run your own sound. He said the soundman from the other club had the steel out front then turned it soo low you could barely hear it.

Soundmen HATE lead instruments. If you exceed any noticeable DB level you're dead. Most also don't understand how to get good tone either.

Billy Bob's in Fort Worth has had the same guys running sound for years. They absolutely murder all bands except the ones who bring their own soundmen.

Lots of good responses here Jaclyn...I too have had my share of issues with SM even in the most professional of situations... The first is...Most of them don't know anything about steel, and they don't like them period...Sad, but widespread.
After 3 years in the house band at BillyBobs TX, I had finally had enough. The soundman that mixed the house band was useless..The last night I played there (opening for Perry), I took my Furlongs, Rack, and my G2 S12...My stage volume and tone were absolutely rocking...The stage is invaded by sound tech in an absolute panic...They could hear me out front...I went through the same thing...Volume to a whisper, dual mikes, lousy monitor mix...etc etc..In a last act of defiance, i moved the mics aside, put my furlongs on the floor, and cranked my Rev to 9....The band gives me a thumbs up....sound tech has a nervous breakdown...IMHO...thats his tough shit..

With all that being said...Most bar bands do not adhere to the simple rules of dynamics, which should ultimately be the drummers primary focus (providing he CAN keep time of course)...When you play WHERE and WHEN you are supposed to, music flows effortlessly...BUT...As so many others have posted...All too often it becomes a VOLUME competition, and by the last set, its just plain painful to even be onstage..My last gig provided me another lasting memory (in the form of ringing ears)...As during the first song the guitarist looked at me on my first solo, and said..."TURN UP"...I responded...IM PLAYING AT THE VOLUME WE SOUNDCHECKED AT...I WILL NOT....If you can't hear me, TURN DOWN..No luck..The last set, I packed up, and Elvis left the building....LOL
All that being said..Since I'm not really dependent on the "food stamps" bands pay nowadays..i don't HAVE to go out and play...I WANT to...too often I just wonder why I drove that far to play to begin with....

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 18 Dec 2013 10:28 am

Bravo, Mickey, and this is an old sound man talking.
To add to Larry Bell's, the ones who move sliders all night are fantasizing about doing something creative, when all they should be doing is reproducing, not producing. They should have it explained how they're never going to be good enough to work in a recording studio or they'd be there, and then shot.

Steve Allison · Post by **Steve Allison** » 18 Dec 2013 10:57 am

Hard to get a "country" drummer or lead guitar player here in Georgia. Most bands and sound men I play for are young and just want the gig money. They don't care what it is supposed to sound like! The drummer sets the stage volume and the only time they play the right volume is when it's a song that's so country and pretty that they don't know it!! Now a'days they start mixing the drums and bass first. Poor old singer and instuments of pretty expression can't compete and play like you are supposed to! You guys bout tired of it like me, or am I a dinosaur? When I see guys in tennis shoes 10 years old and guitars with humbucker pickups hooked up to 18 fuzz pedals into a Marshall amp, I know what I'm up against...

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 18 Dec 2013 7:25 pm

The GUITARIST...ahem..."IM A GUITARIST...LOOK AT ALL MY TOYS!"
Me: I have great golf clubs, and a terrible backswing too!!!
Ah the dreaded cable jungle syndrome...!!!

Im too SMART to carry a damn Marshall...

My back, and my Tele thank me for it...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Dec 2013 4:51 am

my feeling is that we have evolved into a setting where sound men or sound crews ( some not all ) feel they have to mic everything and then put everything in the mix at what they perceive to be balanced . That guitar should never be louder than the snare..even though that guy has a stick and that drummer can all of a sudden go wild on 4 or 5 cymbals during a guitar or STEEL solo.

Phoooey I say.

Putting everything thru the mains at a balanced level is not indicative of any sort of dynamics being played on stage. And my proof is 5 mics on a drum kit...WHY ? So now a supposed sound guy has a bd with 14 to 24 faders with 14 to 24 mics on stage and he alone gets to decide what the blend should be and in many cases for a band he has never heard before.

" Listen to those cymbals man" I got them kickin' butt.. " !

"Oh and that Slide guitar , that's not a lead Instrument ,plus it's to whiny ".

You know I'm right...

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 Dec 2013 9:23 am

The average soundman has no interest in tone.

Because he is usually obsessed by the guitar player and believes that the guitarist output should be advanced above everything else, he will suppress the steel player as much as he can get away with.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 21 Dec 2013 11:13 am

One of the first things I notice at steel shows is the the engineer(s) put a condenser mike in front of the steel amp. That's guaranteed to give a less than full sound in most cases. The humble SM57 works well in a live situation. It's a case of not knowing what the instrument should sound like, or even getting in the ballpark..

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 22 Dec 2013 11:58 am

I never realized there were so many sound experts here on the steel guitar forum.

Then again, over on the sound guy's forum, there's this big multi-page thread going on about how steel guitar players are such a pain to deal with because they never deliver a consistent level, its' a tragedy that we have sunk to the point where we have them at all, the world would be better off without them, and all they ever do is complain about what everyone else is doing anyway...

Time to go logging, my brothers....

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Sound man kills tone

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