Sound man kills tone

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 15 Dec 2013 8:24 am

I know many of you have had this issue, but I can't help but whine. You spend a lot of time and money to get good tone. They mic your amp and have you play at a barely audible stage volume and the mix makes you sound like crap. No bottom, thin and barely in the monitors. I would fire him but its his band! Ok, I feel better.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 15 Dec 2013 10:02 am

According to Jerry, he explained 'the SOUND MAN' is your worst enemy.

He urged me to never go thro' a BOARD as they know only how to destroy your tonal sounds.

Go ahead and FIRE him. He deserves it.

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 15 Dec 2013 10:13 am

I have had a couple people run sound job. But when the singer does it really a bad idea. You has a couple of songs climbing the charts in Texas and a few other places in the country so obviously he has become a genius. It's a good thing I have a sense of humor though.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 15 Dec 2013 10:13 am

Sound men are constantly telling the steel player to Turn Down, and they will make sure you're heard "out front" in the mains. But you are completely at their mercy, and as you said, turning way down kills your tone. One way to fix that is to use a small, lower power amp, preferably a tube amp. You'll get a warm tone at low volumes.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 15 Dec 2013 10:14 am

As Curly Chalker said you spend a life time getting a good sound and it only takes a sound man two minutes or less to screw it up.

And no one was better or near as good on steel.. Tracy

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 15 Dec 2013 10:18 am

Buddy Charlton once told me that Buddy Emmons and himself would not allow another person to touch their sound and for the very reasons you're discussing. From what I understand, they would not permit miking their amp.

Terry Winter · Post by **Terry Winter** » 15 Dec 2013 1:03 pm

This is a good topic. Not only does a sound man on stage make it difficult but I found out also in the studio. I spent a lot of time and effort in working for a good friend in putting together her CD. When it was played back in the control room it sounded great! Full and sweet with my ability to use my volume pedal for full effect.
When we got the finished product, my parts were compressed and/or distorted depending the song. I was really disappointed and he as much as admitted that being a rocker had never heard steel before, this before the final mix so I should have guessed it eh?
My friend was pleased with the CD so I have never even shared my views...okay I'm moving on now

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Dec 2013 1:35 pm

I always took a cd with me. Lloyd or John. Told the soundman or studio engineer that that was the sound to shoot for. Sometimes it worked.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 15 Dec 2013 2:04 pm

One trick is when the sound guy is around the stage learn his name and say.. Hey Bill can you come here for a second. Then play a couple chords when he is in front of you... then I say... this is the sound that I am after.. in a non threatening or telling him how to his job type of conversation.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Dec 2013 2:15 pm

And,,,, if what Ken said doesn't work,,,, open your pak-a-seat, and let him see your revolver!

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 15 Dec 2013 2:19 pm

Just last night I had a steel player who had seen us at a club who has their own sound man come up to me and say, Man you guys sure have a better sound when you run your own sound. He said the soundman from the other club had the steel out front then turned it soo low you could barely hear it.

Soundmen HATE lead instruments. If you exceed any noticeable DB level you're dead. Most also don't understand how to get good tone either.

Billy Bob's in Fort Worth has had the same guys running sound for years. They absolutely murder all bands except the ones who bring their own soundmen.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 15 Dec 2013 2:34 pm

Does a sound man have to have any kind of REAL musical education, background or musical apprenticeship?

Sorta reminds me of my years in playing live television shows. The several different guys with cameras on the floor plus the head cheese in the booth...... NONE had any idea what a fiddle, lead guitar or steel guitar was. They couldn't identify by sight, let alone actually hearing what they sound like.

It was not uncommon to see the taped show as it was aired only to discover that not one of the featured instruments was EVER shown on the screen during their minimal solo or duet. AMAZING!

The musician invests in time and equipment and still runs through life with a minimal feeling of complete confidence. Yet, the sound man and or TV cameraman had self confidence and arrogance to burn.

One of the local bands had their own sound man and once he got ALL of the INSTRUMENTS situated on his
'needles' he'd get up and go dance like he was some kind of celebrity.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Dec 2013 2:42 pm

Our soundman was a keyboard player. A synth guy! I had to educate him! My Nashville buddy would come in and tell me during a break that he couldn't hear my Tele or my steel. Frustrating!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 15 Dec 2013 2:46 pm

that might have been a blessing, ray. they should set things and go away.
soundmen usually aren't musicians, but they want to hang out for whatever selfish perverted reason they've got.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 15 Dec 2013 3:04 pm

[quote="Ray Montee"]Does a sound man have to have any kind of REAL musical education, background or musical apprenticeship?

Sadly, no. But I'm an exception and I mixed live radio and TV sound successfully for many years, and usually managed to find musical guys to work my crews. The bad experiences were broadcasts of live gigs, where another outfit would do the stage sound so we would get blamed for the rubbish in the monitors. But what went to air was always faithful to the artists - we didn't have the resources for a lot of remixing and I'm not giving any trade secrets away if I say that by miking the cabs, setting the faders in a straight line and having a damn good LISTEN before you start turning any other knobs, you will soon get something that sounds like a real band. If you don't like the sound coming from a particular instrument, tough! You're not producing an album - it's what the guy does and the audience needs to hear it.

Jaclyn Jones · Post by **Jaclyn Jones** » 15 Dec 2013 3:27 pm

That is very true about the db reading. That is what I hear all the time. "Your gain jumped up so I turned you down." They like all the dancing lights to be equal on the board. The worst part is the lead singer is running sound from an IPAD the networks with the board. Changes sound and mix durring songs! You can guess what his priority is. His guitar and voice.

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 15 Dec 2013 4:25 pm

If you guys would take a less confrontational view of sound guys, you might have better results. Be a nice guy and tell them what you want. I usually have good results when I let them know how I want to sound.

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 15 Dec 2013 4:31 pm

Curly Chalker had it right!

I wish you the best, but chances are they will continue monkeying around with your sound anyhow.

My advise take their money, smile and run, and remember there's a better future tomorrow.

Terry Wood

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 15 Dec 2013 5:35 pm

Dick Wood wrote:Just last night I had a steel player who had seen us at a club who has their own sound man come up to me and say, Man you guys sure have a better sound when you run your own sound. He said the soundman from the other club had the steel out front then turned it soo low you could barely hear it.

Soundmen HATE lead instruments. If you exceed any noticeable DB level you're dead. Most also don't understand how to get good tone either.

Billy Bob's in Fort Worth has had the same guys running sound for years. They absolutely murder all bands except the ones who bring their own soundmen.

It's my understanding that's the reason George Jones
quit playing at BB's. I went to a couple of his shows years ago at BB's and the sound was awful.

BTW. I saw Ray Price at BB's later and the sound was the same. Couldn't hear the steel or half what Ray was saying. Wish I had got to see G.J. down town Ft Worth. Can't think of what it is called but it is said the sound is as good if not better than Carnegie hall.

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 15 Dec 2013 5:52 pm

I must be fortunate. Most of the time, I'm very pleased. I always go out of my way to build rapport with the crew, and I always thank them. That being said, sound crews love us because we play at a very reasonable volume, we drop down for the vocals, individuals come up for solos, then back down. I don't think they mess with my sound. I'm guessing here , because I can't be in FOH, but I suspect they mostly just amplify my tone.

Sound guy last night raved about how easy we are to mix, due to the above. He also said bands that play with moderate volume and strong dynamics are the exception. It surprised me somewhat, as this is New Orleans, no rock , mostly traditional stuff

I'm in no way suggesting any of your problems are due to the bands volume level or dynamics. I'm no Know it all. We have a strong sound engineer as our Bass player, and that is a huge help. Having one designated person to interact with the crew is a help, but sometimes you do need the ability to communicate what you do and don't want. For the really big festivals, we hire an engineer (not a band member) to speak for us.I know lame sound crews may exist, but there are also some excellent ones that may on occasion work with players who don't know how to use a sound check, or haven't learned how to interact with the crew to get a good sound. It took me many years, and I'm still learning. In their defense....

Sometimes they are the competent ones, and the musician is the weak link. I'm in no way suggesting this is the case in your situation.

The few times we have really struggled were at large festivals with young crews, who didn't understand the Genre of music we play . Western swing, rockabilly, honkytonk.
In the 40s and 50s, nobody played with a booming bottom, super loud Bass and kick drums like a modern rock band.

I'll agree with the idea that they can make your show enjoyable, or take all the fun out of it.

I guess I've just been lucky. The majority of the sound crews here are top notch.

I can't imagine being confrontational or pissing off the crew. Even if they are green and learning, keep in mind you may see them again as time goes by.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Dec 2013 5:53 pm

Does a sound man have to have any kind of REAL musical education, background or musical apprenticeship?

Does a steel guitarist have the same, Ray? Or a bass player or a lead singer or a drummer?

It's interesting to see the parade of agreement here that "sound men" are all the same, i.e. bad for steel guitar players. It's a bunch of rubbish, of course, as the same will be said of any other class of participants in the production of a musical performance if they presented a difficulty.

Of course many professional sound technicians have a superb background in musical performance and production in addition to their technical skills, and I am certainly not ashamed of my own. In the past 50 years I have studied and performed in ensembles at one time or another strings, winds, brass and percussion, in addition to the more popular instruments, electric bass, guitars, keys, and yes, pedal steel. All of the best audio folk I know are also musicians and most are really good at it, but have chosen to use their skills to make other folks sound great in exchange for a regular paycheck to feed the kids with. After a dozen years or more in the trenches they know what to do with an oboe or a tuba or a harp or a piano or a telecaster, and they know what to do with a pedal steel guitar as well. They also know what to do with a bad singer or guitarist, but nobody can fix a bad drummer.

The other thing no amount of magic from the sound controls can ever fix is when everyone on stage plays all over each other, it's not about being loud enough but about making space to fit it all into, and if a band won't turn down without backtalk if and when I ask them to, I won't be working a second show with them....

If your particular sound operator does not exhibit similar traits and attitudes then perhaps it has more to do with the wages and working conditions (and associated talent pool) of your specific venue, and not so much about that "sound man" are or do.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Dec 2013 6:13 pm

Survival tip:
Put your amp on an amp stand IMMEDIATELY to your right, blowing right into your ear. You'll get plenty of stage volume and only need to use stage monitors for vocals or, possibly, other instruments. It's the best stage mix I've ever had and I CONTROL IT.

I've been doing that for several years now and just let those responsible for the PA to check tone and level and then leave it. Some sound techs will do that. Some have to move sliders all night long. Those should be shot.

Alan Tanner · Post by **Alan Tanner** » 15 Dec 2013 6:36 pm

Well, I'm sure there are sound men out there who know their stuff and can do a great job. Unfortunately for me I have never met any of them. What I can never understand is why you spend so much time doing a sound check, getting the monitors right, steel, lead and fiddle all leveled out, bass sounding good, vocals good and clear, and by the time the third tune is being played, the whole concept and sound has changed. Once you get it set, except for a tweek or two, keep yer nicotine charred fingers OFF the sliders. I love the guys who try to snow you with a bunch of "sound psycho babble", not knowing that the longer they talk, the more ignorant they sound. The sound guys I have run into over the years think that rock, speeches, bluegrass and country should all sound the same and have the same dynamics. Personally, most of the time, I feel that bands sound just as good as they did when they go retro. Put the speakers on stage, a couple of monitors, maybe mike the lead amps a little bit in the mix, set the levels and play all night without having to diddle with the p.A. after initial set up and tweek. It worked for years and still works great. It's cheeper and you don't have to listen to a sound "expert" or step over miles of cable. Just my thoughts........

Bryant Aycock · Post by **Bryant Aycock** » 15 Dec 2013 7:33 pm

One thing worse than a burned out rock guitar player trying to play steel is a burned out rock guitar player trying to mix a steel guitar in a PA. Go Home!!!

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 15 Dec 2013 8:57 pm

Q: Do you know the difference between a sound engineer and a toilet seat?

A: The toilet seat can only accommodate one A-hole at a time....

Old sound guy joke.

I agree that it seems a waste to spend all that time doing a sound check, getting everything just right, and then when the band gets on stage everybody turns up before they play the first note (just to be sure they can hear themselves), then play all over each other because they've been drinking steady since sound check (which also means they can't hear any more either), and then they blame the sound guy because they can't hear the vocals in the monitors like they could at at sound check.

FYI if you have had more than one or two beers you have nothing to say to the sound guy, because your ears don't work any more. Come back sober and see how it is. If the mixer is drinking their ears don't work anymore either, but if so they're probably only working for beer and dinner anyway....

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Sound man kills tone

Sound man kills tone

JERRY BYRD once warned me.............

Sound men. &^$#

Sound men are unique.............

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