"Let´s keep it in the good old USA." Misplaced selfishness?

[Sven Kontio]

Guys, I have to bring up a topic that I know some of you will have problems with and that might upset someone...

From time to time, not that unusual, and also right now, I see statements in the For Sale section like ..."And let´s keep it in the good old USA."
Often the item is an Emmons Push Pull.

Where does this misplaced selfishness come from?? To me it seems just plain stupid to state something like that and in the following I will tell you why:

First: I live in Sweden and have many friends and family over in the US. People I really love. And I also do love the country. I get extremely disappointed, sad and offended finding out there is this kind of parochialism among steel pickers over there towards people like myself. What did I ever do to any of you but speak good about you and about the USA?

Second: Pedal Steel Guitar is an instrument with, in relative numbers, few and definitely decreasing number of players. The instrument is endangered of becoming extinct as well as the player him- or herself. Where do you think anybody outside the US would be able to aquire this kind of instrument if not FROM the US? Do you really mean noone outside the US should have the possibility to own a pp? And in that case: WHY?

Third: The push pull is in itself more endangered than the all pull due to its mechanic configuration. There are those, like me, who have learnt how it works, but there are many, many more who never, even with pliers would touch a push pull. Wouldn´t it be better to let anyone who wishes to get to know the instrument or who loves it buy it regardless of location??

Fourth: If I should use the same mindset it would be like saying that MY 1968 Emmons D-10 pp, as well as MY 1981 SD-10, both of which I know many of you over in the US would like to put your hands on, should not be sold back to the US (if and when I´d ever decide to sell them).
In my world it´s better to sell the guitar to ANYONE who wants to play the s-t out of it regardless of where in the world that passionate person is living, instead of it being stached away in someones musical mausoleum. The instrument was made to play and be played, not to be a piece of art just to be watched.

I don´t mean to sound rude or anything, but where does this, in my eyes, misplaced selfishness come from?? I can understand patriotism when it comes to loving your country. But this is something completely different...

/Sven

[Alan Brookes]

As an Englishman living in the U.S.A., I agree with you 100%. I don;t consider people to be of any particular nationality. In fact, one's nationality is usually decided by where one is born, and no-one has any control over that.

If I were selling a steel guitar my only concern in selling to someone outside the U.S.A. would be the heavy cost of freight, (which, if the buyer was prepared to pay, would be irrelevant), and the problem of transferring money.

In the case of money transfer, I have bank accounts in both California and England, and from time to time I've bought items over here on behalf of British friends, from sellers who state that they will not sell abroad. I've paid in dollars and my friends have reimbursed me in pounds, and I've done the same thing when buying items for myself from Europe where the seller says that he won't ship outside Europe: I have the goods shipped to an address in England and then forwarded on to me.

People trading on eBay should be aware that a lot of the goods sold on eBay in US dollars are often sent from a warehouse in China.

[Brian McGaughey]

Hey Sven,

I haven't seen the specific phrase you mentioned, but I will say when I sell something here on the forum or anywhere for that matter, I want the sale to be as easy as possible for me. This includes selling the item for US dollars as those are what I use, and shipping generally to the lower 48 US states because that's what I know and I expect the least shipping problems that way.

Not really anything to it other than that, although I usually use the acronym ConUS for continental USA meaning not looking to ship abroad.

"Misplaced selfishness"?....probably a matter of opinion.

That said, I'm sure it's frustrating to see all these guitars and equipment bought and sold and people like me not willing to deal with overseas sales for whatever reasons.

[Ken Campbell]

I have a brother in Canada and he has immediate family in India. I think you are confusing the incredible hassle of doing business internationally with what you called misplaced selfishness. My two cents....

[Steve Spitz]

I don't see it as selfish. I've encountered a major hassle involving an out of US shipping transaction. My steel got lost in some sort of Customs black hole. It's the only reason I would avoid shipping out of the US. I'm not willing to go through it again. I know it has to frustrate our steel playing friends in other countries, but that's my only reason. If it wasn't for that one issue, I'd gladly ship anywhere.
When someone says " let's keep it here in the USA " it's not a misguided act of patriotism or anti-foreigner motivated. I suspect it's another way of saying I'd rather not risk a potential hassle.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's been my experience.

[Bent Romnes]

So far, I have sold pedal steels to Norway, England, Canada and the US. I have not experienced any shipping problems. I get paid in Canadian$, take the steel out to my local airport. It gets on the next available Air Canada Cargo flight and lands safe and sound in Oslo or Bergen. No problem, no hassle.
Sven, I can just as easily ship you a BenRom to Stockholm.

[Ray Montee]

I'd sell you my Emmons if the price was right......

If you'd provide me everything there is to know about Jasmine-Melani, the great vocalist from your side of the world.

[Bob Hoffnar]

You misinterpreted the words "let's keep her in the USA". It is only a figure of speech meaning "I don't want to bother with international payments and shipping". In the US we say things like "break a leg" as a way of encouraging somebody. We don't actually want them to break there leg.

[Per Berner]

Many people who have not experienced selling anything abroad probably believe there is endless amounts of red tape to get through, and that it somehow is dangerous to receive money from another country. Well, it isn't, on both counts.

You get the money in your account in advance, so as a seller you are perfectly safe. The buyer also pays for expensive shipping and insurance in advance, so no trouble there either. The only thing the seller sacrifices is maybe five minutes filling in a customs declaration form. Everything else is the same as when you pack your goods to be sent to a nearby city.

It's actually the overseas buyer who is subjected to all the hassle (smooth bank transactions is one of those rare areas where the USA is way, way behind Europe) and takes all the risks, shelling out thousands of dollars (plus the privilege of added customs duties and sales taxes) for something he hasn't seen to someone he hasn't met, hoping not to receive a box of bricks.

But, in my experience, the steel guitar community is mostly a trustworthy bunch of people, so we don't worry too much – and, 99 times out of a hundred, everything works out well.

So, Sven, I basically agree with you, but if someone doesn't want to make a deal with you, he has every right not to, no matter if his reasons are valid or not.

[Sven Kontio]

Ok, thx all for not blowing up in my face!
So it might be that I misinterpreted it, as you describe. In that case I' m glad.
Sure I understand one can fear the hassle when shipping overseas but as Per said (and he should know as he bought an Emmons S-10 pp from the US), the hassle basically is on the buyer's end.

I've seen 'CONUS only', 'Lower 48 only' aso, and to me those lines signals 'I don't want the hassle of sending it elsewhere'. I understand that.
I'm glad to so far see that it's not what I thought that is the case.
As Per and others have said here, it's actually no major problem selling overseas. This means I will keep my eyes open for guitars and that I can ask for help from some of you guys to assist if the seller worries about the procedures?

Thanks y'all!

Sven

[Mark Draycott]

I have seen a few guitars that I would have considered buying, had the seller been willing to ship to Canada. I have shipped a steel to USA with zero issues. I have shipped many other items through Ebay worldwide and never had a problem.

[Malcolm McMaster]

With Pay Pal (yes I know there are fees) the sellers money is safe,also same applies to international bankers drafts.I have shipped to Japan, USA , Canada, and Europe , with no problems.If the buyer is willing to pay shipping,insurance I really don't see what the problem is shipping overseas.I have received goods from numerous Steel dealers in USA with no problem.I have had only one problem with a major steel outlet, who would not ship to me, I was told by guy I spoke to that it was too expensive to ship item, I pointed out he was not paying for shipping ,I was, and was willing to accept the costs.He then said no they would not ship as it was too much hassle, I said did he mean that the two minutes extra it would take to fill in customs form? He would not ship it, needless to say I don't use them or recommend them to anyone- their loss, there are lots of great guys out there who will ship.

[Bob Carlucci]

I have a different take on it.. I would say mostly that its about not wanting to ship internationally..

However there is another train of thought,, It applies mainly to rare vintage USA built electric and acoustic guitars than pedal steels, but its worth a mention..
Tremendous numbers of the great USA built guitars from the turn of the century through the 60's are now in Japan, China, Russia, Europe, South America.. They are no longer musical instruments, but simple investments..
I know the owner of one of the best known, best stocked rare and vintage guitar shops in the world actually.. Much of his best stuff goes overseas to rich collectors/investors... They will never be played again. They get warehoused. He doesn't mind, its his business.. However many folks feel that these great instruments are part of American culture, and part of our heritage, and are now in the hands of "foreigners" that see them only as investments or status symbols.
There are a LOT of millonaires in the world looking to buy rare, valuable Americana.

I have been in the store many times, and although it is wall to wall with the most incredible old guitars I have ever beheld, there is NEVER a soul in the place.. A good size,warm inviting place with carpets and sofas. All the transactions are done via the net and the phone, almost NO face to face.. Many of these rare guitars go out of country, probably never to return.. That bothers some people.
It doesn't trouble me really, but I can certainly understand the consternation on the part of vintage guitar lovers, seeing all those beautiful, rare, and EXPENSIVE USA built guitars being shipped away from the US, just sayin'.... bob

[Herb Steiner]

The attitude Bob speaks of does exist, though a hoarder in a foreign land is no worse than one who resides stateside if one is fundamentally opposed to hoarding, which I am not.

In the end it's all just "stuff." A guitar going bye bye is not a call from your doctor or a knock on the front door from a policeman. Maybe because I'm an old fart now, but I like to keep things in proper perspective, so to speak.

[Storm Rosson]

I'm with you Herb, it's just a stuff.

[Brian McGaughey]

In the end it's all just "stuff."

True, but "stuff" that makes music ranks up there of importance with the call from the doc or the knock from the cop to me. Maybe I'm not old enough, yet!

Topic drift, I know.

[Ulrich Sinn]

I can certainly understand the consternation on the part of vintage guitar lovers, seeing all those beautiful, rare, and EXPENSIVE USA built guitars being shipped away from the US

Wouldn't a vintage guitar lover in the US to a large degree also be a collector/investor anyway?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... tures.html

[chris ivey]

i think it might just be an offhanded comment by someone else who is sick of this country being sold down the river. it's not personal to you, sven.

some of us would just like 'to gain control again'.
when santa claus and God aren't politically correct, you've got to start somewhere.

[Dave Diehl]

I have personally dealt with folks outside the US and never had a problem shipping things. If they are willing to pay the price and the shipping cost and I'm selling, I personally don't care what their intentions are once they receive it.

[Dave Hopping]

There might be something of a similarity between the "keep it in the USA" ad and the efforts of Native Americans and Egyptians to recover cultural artifacts from places they consider foreign.

[Tom Gorr]

I can understand the risks and uncertainties of dealing outside one's own country. Part of 'commerce' generally is having some level of social comfort with the business ethics of the the counter party, and cultural factors are often unknown.

I broke the ice on that 'fear of the unknown' in the purchase of a piece of gear from a german speaking fellow in Deutsland. We communicated using Babelfish, the online translator, and there were enough errors in translation that it actually turned into a pretty humorous dialogue. Sent the money through Western Union...a BIG no no....but I got the item delivered by DHL in record time for almost any item I've ever bought before. That gave me a momentary relief of the rumors that Western Union payment requests were usually scams.

That ended up being a misleading lesson in confidence. I eventually learned the hard way that requests for payment via Western Union ended up being 2/3 scams, and I was given a few 'lessons' before I stopped that practice.

Interestingly - ALL of the bad transactions have been within my home country. Proof that cultural comfort is meaningless. Paypal has been good to me.

[Richard Sinkler]

You misinterpreted the words "let's keep her in the USA". It is only a figure of speech meaning "I don't want to bother with international payments and shipping". In the US we say things like "break a leg" as a way of encouraging somebody. We don't actually want them to break there leg.

Well, most of the time we don't.

[Mark Draycott]

At the end of the day, I sure wish a few of those beauties were available for me to purchase here in Canada.

[Alan Brookes]

...It's actually the overseas buyer who is subjected to all the hassle (smooth bank transactions is one of those rare areas where the USA is way, way behind Europe) and takes all the risks, shelling out thousands of dollars (plus the privilege of added customs duties and sales taxes) for something he hasn't seen to someone he hasn't met, hoping not to receive a box of bricks...

I couldn't have put it better. About a month ago I sent a Mexican Laut to a friend of mine in England. Apart from having to fill out a customs declaration form, which just takes a couple of minutes, it didn't take any longer at the Post Office than shipping locally. It took just a few hours to reach England, where it was held in customs for several days, and my friend eventually received a postcard with a demand for about 20% customs duty and a processing fee. He mailed them a check and the instrument was eventually received by him more than a week after I sent it. But all the hassle was on his side. To me, sending it was simple.
I must add that I order model railway supplies from Hattons of Liverpool frequently, and in all the years I've been dealing with them I've never had a parcel held up in US Customs, and I've never been charged duty on any of them. The US government is a lot more co-operative on imports than any other country, from my experience.

[Sven Kontio]

Guys,
Well, we´ve now learned that it´s EZ to sell worldwide. Paypal is to be trusted, I gladly send my money through their services any day.
Whenever shipping, good packing is essential. No difference whether you send it domestic or global.
So the only thing remaining is the customs form, which many here have stated is 2-5 minutes of work. Could we say now that dealing with eachother from today could be global?
Could we also say that we help eachother with filling out the customs form if needed?
Obviously I was wrong when I suspected that not wanting to sell outside the USA was based on some misguided patriotism. I´m glad!

Bob C: Of course there are those with TOO much money in their pockets buying rare pieces and stash them away forever. I´m not a fan of that. Instruments are IMHO supposed to be used and played the sh-t out of.
I figure the vast majority of us here want to play...
In my world these instruments will only be good investments as long as there´s somebody else wanting to pay more... And the thing is that it´s not the instrument itself that´s valuable, it´s its history... It doesn´t even have to be a good instrument...

Chris I: Sure! I know many people in your country feel betrayed by their own government. Frustration and the feeling of being out of control can cause any kind of reaction.

Let´s sum it up: When you are selling to someone outside your country, the buyer takes all the risks. You need to pack properly, the same way you do when you ship anywhere. The customs form: 2-5 minutes. Ask for help here if you´re not sure how to fill it in.
In order for the buyer to reduce his risk, he needs to make sure the product he´s buying is in the expected condition. Close-up images are one way. Its history is another. Has any of our well reknowned restorers worked on it? Ask! Also remember a photo can make things look better than reality.

Also he needs to know who´s selling. Do your homework! Start by asking around right here. Try to gather enough info about the seller to feel secure. Nobody wants to receive a box of bricks... Most of us are honest...but some ain´t...
Don´t send any money before you feel secure!

Finally: Use Paypal!

I think we now, by this thread, have made it a little easier to sell globally. It´s not at all hard.

Thank y´all for your relevant and nice comments. Much appreciated!

/Sven