Fender Dual Pro restoration?

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 25 Oct 2013 4:18 pm

Hi there. I'm new to the forum, though I have read many threads here before. Last year I purchased a 1953 Fender Dual 8 Pro, being new to steel guitar, sight unseen. It's usable, but it has some issues. I just want some thoughts on how much these repairs will cost, who can do each repair, and if this instrument is really worth restoring.

Both pickups fully work, though they visually appear kind of rough, lack brightness, sound somewhat distorted, and have unbalanced volume (between the 2 pickups, not between strings). I think they just need to be rewound. Unfortunately, Jason Lollar's website says he isn't doing rewinds right now, so does anybody have a recommendation for who can rewind these funky trapezoid pickups well? Also, a few of the strings on one neck buzz a ton, even unamplified, and I think it's due to the holes for the strings' ball ends being cracked (see photo). Does this just need to be welded? Could the person rewinding the pickups probably do that? There's also some rough gauging into the wood and old filled holes from an old home-brewed pedal steel conversion, so could this maybe contribute to why it buzzes and distorts when playing any string with decent force?

And the bigger problem, of course: these infamous tuners. One busted this summer (luckily for an 8th string!), and it wasn't the gear (I have plenty of appropriately-sized replacements)--it was the main post with the button. You turn it, and it just pops back once it gets to a certain point, even without a string on it. A few more just feel like they're about to bust as well, and many are just too rough to get tuned to the accurate pitch. This is a way bigger project than I could ever take on. Would replacing all 16 tuners be something a local luthier could do? Or is there someone I could send both tuning pans to to just do all the work?

Of course, I must also ask, how much do you think all this will cost me? I'm $900 into this instrument, so $1,000 would be absolute tops for what I could justify putting into it to have this work done since Dual Pros in great shape are selling for less than that total investment. Any knowledgable input is well appreciated. Thanks.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 25 Oct 2013 5:47 pm

worth restoring?

Financially, probably not. According to your figures the maximum you are willing to pay for repairs is $100. I think the restoration will cost more than that. On the other hand, if you really like the guitar you might want to keep it and look for parts. You could put the best tuner pan on the neck with the best pickup and play it as a single-8 for a while.

Regarding the rewind: check with Jerry Wallace and see if he does these trapezoid pickups. He did some work for me recently (not trapezoid PUs) and he did a great job, fast too.

The buzz in the pickup: there is a plastic liner inside each pickup... it lines the opening where the strings pass through the pickup. That liner material often dries out and hangs down on the string(s) creating a buzzing sound. Look inside the opening and if you see the liner hanging down try to push it back up with a tool, putty knife, screwdriver, etc.

The tuners: a major problem because each tuner is welded to the underside of the tuner pan. And the parts are almost impossible to find. Some of the later Dual Pros had removable tuners, but most of them are welded in place. I have a few gears and shafts that the string wraps around and the screws that hold the gear to the shaft, but I don't have any main posts/buttons. Even if you can find some posts with buttons, the old posts are welded in place so that's a problem.

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 25 Oct 2013 6:06 pm

Okay. Thanks. I meant $1,000 in repairs (so $1900 tops total investment). I'm still using it daily, and it works (one neck just has 7 strings, which is fine); I just want the whole thing good-sounding, fully usable condition. I haven't taken it apart before. Is the pickup accessible under the metal enclosure? So do I just unscrew the pickup assembly to access the plastic liner?

I had thought it would be possible to unweld the existing tuning posts, drill into the side of the tuning pan to get the tuning posts out, clip the ends of new Kluson tuners, and weld them in the correct spots. I tried using gears from an old Harmony that fit as well as other gears from this Dual Pro that still work, and that one post still just slips. It moves up and down a little, so I think that's the issue.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 25 Oct 2013 6:14 pm

Oh.... $1000 for repairs. That makes a difference. In that case, watch eBay for a used tuner pan with tuners. They come up a couple of times a year and sell for about $200, sometimes more.

The pickup: You don't need to remove anything to check the liner. Just look into the opening where the strings pass through and see if any liner material is hanging down.

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 25 Oct 2013 7:05 pm

My concern with just purchasing another tuning pan is that it's old like what I've already got, so the same problem could easily happen again, and then I'm out $200(+). If I could find somebody to put new tuners in these tuning pans and keep the costs related to the tuners below $700, that sounds like my best bet.

Also, the liner material is fully secured in place. Even the strings without the cracking around the ball ends buzz and distort (unamplified) only on the inner neck when played hard enough. Hmm...

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 25 Oct 2013 7:20 pm

Did you try changing the strings? Or using different gauge strings? Also make sure the screws on the brideplate are all tight.

Former Member · Post by **Former Member** » 25 Oct 2013 7:24 pm

There's only one man to contact!
Rick Aiello

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 25 Oct 2013 7:28 pm

I changed all the strings just last week and have tried several gauges over the past few months. I've never unscrewed the pickups, but I've taken the tuning pans out to try changing out the gears as I mentioned. All the holes for every screw for both tuning pans are stripped. I wonder why the outer neck isn't buzzing and distorting then..?

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 25 Oct 2013 11:26 pm

So Ron, Rick could fix both the pickups and the tuners?

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 26 Oct 2013 4:00 am

I'm pretty loaded up with jobs right now ... Tom B. does a fine job winding Traps ...

http://www.rewindpickup.com

For the tail piece and tuning pan stuff ... I'd look for a local machine shop or sheet metal shop to do that kinda work ...

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 26 Oct 2013 4:43 am

Personally I would spend the money on buying another good solid working guitar, without issues. Nice originall Dual Pros are available for $1200 or so...Jerry

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 26 Oct 2013 8:43 am

Lindy Fralin rewound a trapezoid pickup for me a few years ago. It came out perfect.

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 26 Oct 2013 8:46 am

I've thought about just getting another. A music store near my parents where I've purchased 3 guitars before has a Rickenbacher B8 in great shape for $1,000, and I'm fine with using A6 for everything. However, selling my Dual Pro with these issues would likely be difficult, and I know it would kill me to see it every day and want to play it, so I'd probably still want to get it fixed up.

Dave Mayes · Post by **Dave Mayes** » 26 Oct 2013 9:50 am

Regarding the tuners.....there MAY be nothing wrong that a bit of skillful soldering won't cure.
Check the lead soldering spots that fix the tuners to that funny brass(?)strip that runs the length of the tuners. Are any of those cracked? If yes, then have them re-soldered....a local jeweler did mine for cheaps.
The worm needs to fit and be fixed snugly in place against the gear... there should be no up and down play, or very little.
There are two little metal tabs/flanges(?)that told the worm. If these tabs/flanges are loose, I'd have the jeweler toe the tabs towards each other and give them a little soldering too.

Hope this helps & welcome to the forum!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 26 Oct 2013 1:34 pm

Silver solder, right?

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 26 Oct 2013 3:20 pm

Another vote for Lindy Fralin. You send him the complete pickup assembly, magnets and all.

He also repaired the bobbin on my rewind. No more rattle, quiet as a mouse.

h

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 26 Oct 2013 3:24 pm

Do you have a photograph of the tuner end? I'd like to see which version of the tuners it has.

Dave Mayes · Post by **Dave Mayes** » 26 Oct 2013 6:13 pm

No John, the jeweler I took mine to said it was lead solder.

Kelvin Monaghan · Post by **Kelvin Monaghan** » 27 Oct 2013 2:17 am

Its actually not too difficult to sort out the tuners.
First I heated the metal buttons over a gas stove about a half minute,then with a pair of pliers pull them off the shaft,they are only soldered on and come off very easily.

Next I used a small pencil butane burner to heat the tuners ,for about 20 seconds the solder melts and they fall off the brass strip.

I then got some stripp tuners from Stewmac and cut each one off to the same size as the originals ,heat the shaft with the plastic buttons and pull them off.

Then do a reverse and resolder,I had to slightly ream out the metal buttons because the Stewmac shaft was a biggers diameter.

Non of this is difficult just fiddly its no big deal .
Hope this helps

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 27 Oct 2013 10:43 am

Don;t forget that, if the plating of nickel-plated brass is too detiorated, you can send the parts away for re-plating.

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 28 Oct 2013 3:17 pm

Here's a pic of one of the tuning pans, Alan.

I recall that the brass strip was in fine shape when I last had that tuning pan out and tried to determine what was wrong and tried changing the gears this summer. I'll take out that tuning pan and look at it again next time I change the strings for that neck though.

I think I'm going to try Kelvin's idea when I have some free time around Thanksgiving. Each set of tuners on a plate for a 12-string guitar sell for $55 each on StewMac, so trying to do it on my own might be able to save me a lot of money. Worst case scenario, I can't do it right or put it back together correctly after taking it all apart, so I'd just have to bring it to a machinist anyway, right? A friend of mine with an old Stringmaster recently told me he had a machinist fix his tuning pans. That sounds like the best bet if I can't do it on my own with a soldering iron and a few free hours on a weekend.

As for the pickups, it sounds like there's a number of people who can do them for a few hundred dollars or less, so my only concern with keeping everything within budget is the tuners. Once I have the tuners figured out and know this is all doable, I'll contact Tom and Lindy to get quotes and timeframes. If I can fix the tuners on my own, I could potentially have this Dual Pro in perfect working shape again for around $400, which would be fantastic.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 28 Oct 2013 3:28 pm

It doesn't look like it needs any attention to the chrome-work. That chrome is in excellent condition for its age. When you take the tuner pan out take some photographs of the wood underneath. They usually have pencilled notes as to the date the neck was made and by whom.

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 28 Oct 2013 3:41 pm

I actually had the pics from the Craigslist posting I bought it from last year, and this was one of them. The guy I bought it from was actually the first to tell me about SGF!

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 31 Oct 2013 4:21 pm

I did some photo-enhancing on your image, and it clearly shows the date 4-53 and the circled number 1, meaning it is a first position neck made in April 1953. That doesn't mean the instrument was finished then. Fender usually built necks separately, in batches, then put them on the shelf until needed later. You may find that the date is different under the other tuner pans, as they used to run out of necks 1 and 2 a lot quicker than 3 and 4, as they used a lot more of them.
I can't make out any initials of the builder. Maybe you can with bare eyes and a magnifying glass.
The other place to look for information is in the hollowed-out region under the pick-ups.

Tha bsolute expert of Fenders is, of course, Jody Carver. He was a Fender rep for many years and knew the people on the production line by name. He hasn't been posting lately, but if you use the "Search" function over his name and Fender you can find all sorts of interesting information.

T.J. Pluhacek · Post by **T.J. Pluhacek** » 21 Dec 2013 12:07 am

I know it's been a while since I've posted any update on this thread, but I have gotten the tuners all situated out, so I thought I'd post how it turned out. I haven't done anything with the pickups since it seems like plenty of people can rewind them, so it was my first priority to make sure that I could get new tuners in, which would ensure that this restoration would be possible.

I initially tried Kelvin's idea, which at least for my tuners specifically, did not work by heating them up over a gas stove. Not knowing where to turn next, I brought in the worse of the 2 tuning pans to my favorite repair shop, The Twelfth Fret in Portland, OR, hoping they could maybe point me in the direction of a good local machinist. However, another Steel Guitar Forum member (and great player!), Russ Blake, who works at The Twelfth Fret, was able to replace all of the tuners at a very reasonable price. We tried using 12-string tuners for a slotted headstock guitar from Stew-Mac, and he didn't have to cut them individually or reuse the brass plate (which isn't soldered or welded to the pan actually; just the 2 at the end for each strip were cut off), since the spacing on them is actually correct for fitting in this tuning pan. He had to drill larger holes in the original buttons to get them to fit on the new posts as well as enlarge the holes in the pan for the posts with the buttons detached to fit through. With the brass plate off, he was able to remove the posts that the strings go through to use the new ones with the new gears from these new tuners. He did have to cut the ends of those posts to make them fit, and the holes for the strings to go through are a little closer to the center block strip than before, though the holes are not blocked at all by the center block strip. It looks great to me, though I won't be able to try it out until I get home after Christmas. Now I just have to bring the other tuning pan to Russ, get the pickups (or at least the one that's super weak and buzzing) figured out, and fill and redrill all the stripped screw holes for the tuning pans, and my Dual Pro is problem-free for many more decades!