Arpeggios on E9th? MMmmmm, ham...

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 23 Jul 2003 4:25 pm

I would like to get a few examples of an arpeggio on E9th tuning. Also, is this something I might need to know on my steel? Thanks in advance.

Wayne Baker

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Jul 2003 8:54 pm

An arpeggio is the notes of a chord played in sequence, one at a time. Here's an example of a G arpeggio: <pre>1 _______________________________________
2 _______________________________________
3 ___________3___________________________
4 _________3___3_________________________
5 _______3_______3_______________________
6 _____3___________3_____________________
7 _______________________________________
8 ___3___________________________________
9 _______________________________________
10_______________________________________</pre>There are lots of ways to play arpeggios. They're useful mostly as background fill that doesn't call attention to itself, behind the vocal or behind another instrument that's soloing.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 23 Jul 2003 9:51 pm

Speaking mostly from a guitarist's point of view, arpeggios are useful for developing single-note lead lines. Instead of just playing the full seven-note major scale or mode up and down, playing every other note of the scale (which is what four-note arpeggios are) gives one the ability to break up the note sequence and focus on chord/gravity tones.

I can't say that I've gotten into this type of single-note line thinking very deeply on E9 yet. At my stage of development it seems more practical to work on other things.

Guitarists usually think of basic arpeggios as the notes from a four-note chord -- major 7th, minor 7th, dom. 7th, m7b5 are the basic ones found in major scale harmony. If three-note forms are being used, these are usually called "triads." [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 23 July 2003 at 10:55 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 23 July 2003 at 10:57 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 24 Jul 2003 2:14 am

Arpeggios are a good way to break out of strictly scalar runs, too. I only play C6th, but in tonal numbers, a common strategy would be to play 1 3 5 7, 2 4 6 8, 3 5 7 9, etc. - ascending and descending patterns going up and down, in triplets and eighths, three and four note chords - it's bottomless.

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 24 Jul 2003 7:26 am

An arpeggio is a chain of islands caused by volvanic activity... oh, wait. Never mind.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Jul 2003 6:06 pm

Tony,
We're not going to take you seriously, atoll.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 25 Jul 2003 5:33 am

Jeff, could you explain what you mean by 'gravity tones'? I've never heard that before.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Jul 2003 6:26 am

An arpeggio is just a way of presenting a chord. A chord played in the usual way, all notes at once, is a 'blocked' chord. When the chord is played as individual notes, it is an 'arpeggiated' chord.

There are rudimentary, fundamental tones that anchor a chord. I believe that's what Jeff is referring to. Typically I'd call the root and fifth the 'gravity' tones. Jeff may also include the third, but I don't, and will explain why below.

Often, the bass player will play these notes, opening many doors to substitution. Viewing the CMa7 chord as a CMaj triad and an Emi triad is good for an example. If the bass player is thinking (and playing) C, he will cover the tonic of the CMa7. In that case, if you play an Emi triad, the BAND will be playing a CMa7 chord. There are many substitutions that rely on 'rootless' construction where another player carries the root (or it is implied).

The basic jazz chord is a four-note chord -- usually a seventh chord. If it's minor it's usually some form of a mi7 chord. If it has a major third, it's either a Ma7 or a Dom7. All of those are easily extended to the 9th, Ma9th, or mi9th by adding the 9th to the basic 4 note chord.

The 'color' tones are primarily the third (major or minor), seventh (major or dominant), and any altered (b9, #9, #11, etc.) or extended notes (9th, 11th, 13th, etc.) Understanding how these tones function and interact is a key to getting the 'feel' and 'sound' of more complex jazz or pop progressions.

Many keyboard players think in terms of polychords -- one chord on top of the other. It's much easier on a piano than on a steel guitar, but if you listen to Bruce Hornsby or Stevie Wonder, for that matter, you will hear a lot of poly-harmonies. Since the steel usually only voices 2, 3, or 4 notes (ok, sometimes 5), and there are limitations on which 4 or 5 notes are available on the same fret at the same time, it's a more difficult concept for steel players to grasp.[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2003 at 07:57 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Jul 2003 7:36 am

Larry, your points are interesting. A few thoughts of my own. This idea of poly-tonal chords is something I played around with a little on C6 (which would obviously work on a U-12 as well). The conclusion that I came to, at least for myself, was that while I can squeeze a few out here and there, and therefore leverage the concept a bit, I don't think I could ever THINK poly-tonally, the way some piano players do. First of all, like you said, there just isn't enought note capability to be able to create any sort of upper chord structure you want, while holding the lower chord structure constant. Also, piano players have two components - left hand and right hand. When I read about how some jazz pianists think generally in their playing, they often talk about what the "left hand" does and the "right hand" does and the polytonal idea is tailor-made for them. Now, with that having been said, the way to develop a poly-tonal idea on C6 is to do it in terms of strings. So when I have thought poly-tonally, I did so by breaking up the fret into the lower structure - strings 5-10 - and the upper structure - strings 1-4. This is somewhat flimsy, but it will help a player locate some poly-tonal chords. Hold the bottom constant, and use whatever pedals and knee levers you have to change the upper structure strings. But again, this can only go so far. There are too many limitations in this approach but it gets you some nice sounds.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 25 July 2003 at 08:46 AM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 25 Jul 2003 5:03 pm

Jeff, could you explain what you mean by 'gravity tones'?

My experience with this term is that it refers to the notes within a certain form that, for one reason or another, are the most compelling -- i.e. have the most "gravity."

The term also implies the notes in a particular form which are the best to resolve a phrase to -- (like gravity pulling the phrase to a certain note for resolution).

Saying "chord/gravity tones" above, I was using the term in a fairly general sense, linking the two terms as synonymous. When playing out of a 7-note scale for example, a triad or four-note "arpeggio" can be a subgroup of notes to choose from for emphasis, since they are the most important notes out of the 7-note scale.

"Arpeggio" can refer to a type of strum,playing each chord tone in succession. However, I usually use the term in describing a group of notes (usually four) to draw ideas from. This is similar to how people will often say "play such-and-such scale over this," when really they mean create ideas out of that group of notes, rather than playing the strict scale sequence up or down.

I remember being 16 years-old, and talking to an older guitarist whom I really respected. He was way into the scale and technique thing, and at the time in my area, sounded unique because of this.

I clearly remember him telling me:

"Get into scales and arpeggios man, because that's where it's all goin.'"

It was years before I realized he wasn't talking about strumming technique!

To my mind, in a more specific sense, the gravity tones would be those few notes (or one note) that best fit when playing over a certain place in a chord progression. Often times these may be either a 3rd or 7th, since those two notes are what define most four-note chords.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 26 Jul 2003 5:20 am

It's occurred to me that a very significant aspect of the arpeggio form that guitarists learn and practice hasn't yet been brought up. This is the aspect that really separates this study from just taking a chord form and playing individual notes out of it.

When a full arpeggio is learned for a given chord type, essentially all of the chord tones for that type which are available in that position, are learned in one ascending/descending form. On a six-string guitar, this means across all the strings; covering a range of slightly over two octaves.

I'm getting the impression that learning this type of technique may not be as much of a concern to steel players -- true or not?

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 26 Jul 2003 8:55 pm

Jeff, I agree totally. Once you learn a position that is the same both up and down the neck. My issue is I'm in sort of a slump and hoping for some new ideas. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.

Respectfully,
Wayne Baker

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 26 Jul 2003 11:52 pm

It should be noted that Extended chords, 9th,11th,13th, all have a flatted seventh tone, just like altered chords do. I think that if you are using a major 7 in the chord, or not using any kind of 7 at all, it would be referred to as a major 9, major 11 (possibly a sus chord), or major 6 chord. At least that is the way I understand it. I think of polychords more in horn arrangements, although piano players probably play them all the time. The cool thing that piano players do that I don't have much understaning of is what I call fraction chords, like an F major triad with a G in the bass (4/5, or a four over five chord), which I think could be called a G7 9/11, I would spell this as, root, flat seventh, nine, eleven. There is a nice "outside" sounding five chord that I play that is basicly a G major triad, root, third, fifth, with an Ab in the bass, making it a Bb altered chord spelled: b7,b9,3d,13, I am not sure what you would call this chord, possibly a Bb b9/13? I know I am taking this off topic, but I am curious to hear what some of you fellow forumites that know theory have to say about using major triads with different bass notes. As far as improvising single not stuff, on guitar I use major 7, minor 7 and dominant 7 arpegio's a lot, and I have just lately been playing a 9th chord arpegio, (3d, 5th, b7, 9) a lot. I haven't tried it on steel yet. It seems that "raking the strings" with your thumb pick is a good way to get arpegios on the C6, but that is something I haven't worked on much. I didn't mean to ramble on, just food for thought. Wayne, its obvious that you are hungry for ideas and I think that its great that you are posting these type of questions. Don't get frustrated, it takes a lot of practice and patience to become a good steel player and it sounds like you are well on your way.[This message was edited by Bob Watson on 27 July 2003 at 01:01 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Watson on 27 July 2003 at 01:04 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Watson on 27 July 2003 at 01:09 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Watson on 27 July 2003 at 01:14 AM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 27 Jul 2003 6:16 am

I am not sure what you would call this chord, possibly a Bb b9/13?

My instinct would be to just call this a "slash chord," G over Bb. I wouldn't myself call it Bb13b9, because it doesn't have a b7th note. I would treat it like the F over G chord you mention above, which -- as you know -- is commonly used as a V chord with G as the root.

I have just lately been playing a 9th chord arpegio, (3d, 5th, b7, 9) a lot.

My easy way of getting this is just to play a minor 7b5 arpeggio up a major third from the intended root. I originally learned four types of arpeggio, to cover the basic chords that occur in major scale harmony, where the m7b5 occurs on the nat. 7th note of the scale. Now, rather than put too much more time into learning more arpeggio fingerings, I first see if I can superimpose the ones I already know, over different roots, to get others.

Dropping the b7th note in the m7b5 arpeggio gives a diminished arpeggio, that can be rooted on any note in the form. If you play this diminished arpeggio with any of its notes up a half-step from the root of a 7th chord, you then have a 7b9 arpeggio. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 27 July 2003 at 07:22 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 27 Jul 2003 7:18 am

You can play "sweep" type arpeggios on different frets in the C6th tuning using the tip of the bar. Obviously, this works best going in in one direction - say, up the neck on three adjacent strings, like the notes you'd hit in a slant - but you can get around pretty good when you keep a scale map in mind. I started doing this 20-some years ago playing slide guitar, and the idea transfers to steel just fine. Using a large, light, short (3 1/4") bar helps.

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 3 Aug 2003 6:17 am

Your G triad with Ab in the bass is an Ab diminished triad. As it relates to Bb, the triad is implying Bb7b9. Remember that diminished chords, be they triads or diminished 7th chords, invert every minor third. So Ab dim, B dim, D dim, and F dim will all imply Bb7b9. (Actually, if you're using triads, the one with D in the bass only implies Bb7, no b9 in it.)

The scale that goes with this is Ab diminished (or Ab Lydian Auxillary Diminished, if you're from the Russell school). The notes are Ab,Bb,B,Db,D,E,F,G. These are the exact same notes as B,D, and F diminished, just starting on different notes; the scale inverts every minor third just like the chords do.

The first one to use this scale to great extent was Thelonious Monk, and it is an excellent tool for dominant 7th chords.

Try this lick, eighth notes, going from G7 to C-

G,Ab,Bb,Ab G,F,E,D Db,B,Bb,Ab G,Ab,G,F E

Pretty nice jazzy sound, eh? Worth the trouble to experiment with.