wondering about the switch from s10 to s12

Ian Holman · Post by **Ian Holman** » 18 Sep 2013 2:38 am

Hello, full on noob here. I've been playing psg over a year now and would like to, at some unknown point in the future, get a better guitar. I'm wondering how realistic is it for me to make the upgrade to an s12? either a universal or an extended E9th tuning? Which brings me to the second part of the question: What is a more realistic tuning to move into, universal or an extended E9th? Thanks.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Sep 2013 2:48 am

The answer to part 2 has to do with whether you like the sound and style of those "C6th" changes.
You can do nearly everything on the front neck, but they have a different "flow" to them.
The tuning and pockets both influence, and are influenced by, what you play.
I personally dig the Uni.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Sep 2013 9:18 am

If you buy a 12 string, you can always switch from an extended E9 to a uni, or vice versa. This is not a real issue.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Sep 2013 12:42 pm

Going from an S10 to an S12 is not really an upgrade. The same as going from a 4 string violin to a 5st violin. There is absolutely no benefit or need for more strings and pedals until you have a specific musical reason for them. And even with that in almost every situation I have run into if you learn the E9 tuning in a deep way you may find all the extra strings and levers to be unnecessary.

Practice/study more and buy a good amp or prettier steel instead

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Sep 2013 1:30 pm

For that matter, you didn't say what guitar you currently have.
Better guitar might not mean more strings, just more changes (if you have a 3&1 relic student model), or just more stout construction (if you have a Carter Starter or GFI student).

Ian Holman · Post by **Ian Holman** » 18 Sep 2013 2:54 pm

Thanks everyone for your comments. Yeah, Lane I guess I didn't say what type of guitar I have... I have a Carter starter, so yes I figure if I got a better quality s10 that would probably improve things. Just thought I'd ask.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Sep 2013 3:17 pm

Now for the next question: What do you have in mind for the next step, and what's your budget going to allow?
Like Bob says, if you get a really deep understanding of the E9th neck, you can do amazing things there.
Both "Houston" and "The Lady Takes the Cowboy" were E9th.
The other tunings lends themselves to certain ways of thinking, but you can do nearly everything on one that you can on the other, although A and B pedal stuff on C6 requires either extra hardware or a prodigious brain.
The polar opposite of the Starter, IMO, is the MSA. Built like a tank, and only half as heavy as one.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=252584
Don't judge Carter by the Starter. This is a good guitar
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=252671

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 18 Sep 2013 3:33 pm

Lane Gray wrote: I personally dig the Uni.

So do I !!!

Douglas Schuch · Post by **Douglas Schuch** » 18 Sep 2013 3:47 pm

I think Lane made the critical statement in his first post above: do you like the sound of C6? As a beginner, I had no idea. But, after playing a bit one day I was going through Greg Cutshaw's pages with lots of tab and sound samples. I'd click on a sample and decide if it was something I was interested in. About 2/3rds of what I was interested in turned out to be done on C6 so I could not play it with my student guitar (although Lloyd probably could have). It was then that I realized I wanted a guitar that could do the 6th - tuning stuff, either D-10 or Universal. I'd suggest doing that. If it turns out you are mostly into E9 stuff, great! You just saved some money! Look at those guitars Lane has linked. If you really dig the C6/B6/Bb6 stuff, well, might as well at least consider getting a guitar that allows for that when you make the transition from a student guitar. Just my opinion, based on a recent trip down that road.

Ian Holman · Post by **Ian Holman** » 18 Sep 2013 5:16 pm

Yes, I totally agree, I still have a world to learn in regards to the E9th tuning. As far as my budget goes, right now I'd have to put a thumb pick on lay-away. However, truthfully I did see a couple of s10 guitars for sale that were priced within my possible budget,(between 1200 and 1500). Again, thanks so much for all the great responses, this forum really is a great fountain of information.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 18 Sep 2013 5:25 pm

My take and approach was a bit different. I started out on a single 10 standard setup. I then thought about getting a D-10 but realized that steel players in my area had D-10 guitars and the C6 neck was basically an arm rest.

I then got Jeff Newman's VHS tape on the Universal 12 string and figured I still had the E9 and I could ease into the B6 side. To further the effort I viewed Joe Wright's tapes on using the U-12 as one big guitar and using 4 picks. It worked out for me and I am glad chose that fork in the road.

Lenny

Frank Montmarquet · Post by **Frank Montmarquet** » 18 Sep 2013 7:00 pm

I started on an E9, 3 X 1 student. After 2 or 3 months I decided it was doable and started looking for a better guitar. I bought a used U-12. I like it, didn't take long to get around not having a D string.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 18 Sep 2013 7:17 pm

Ian, if you can read between the lines here, you find suggestions that there are years of study in the E9 tuning alone, that whether you want more strings or a universal tuning depends on what sounds move you, and what sonic direction you'd like to explore, and that budget may be a consideration. All of these are true. I'll chip in to say that I've switched off an on from Single to Double neck 10 string guitars for more than 30 years, with most of my work and earnings done on E9. I've just recently gone to a Universal 12 and I really wish I'd done it years ago. Everything E9 offers and most of C6, a wider variety of sounds and expression, and a ton of fun.

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 18 Sep 2013 10:40 pm

Mark van Allen wrote: Everything E9 offers and most of C6, a wider variety of sounds and expression, and a ton of fun.

This is exactly what I think of the Universal Tuning !

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 19 Sep 2013 4:57 am

My first interest in 6th style I started out learning Swinging on E9th by Herb Steiner with an S-10.
Then it took a while and I got a 12 string Universal.
Jeff Newmans universal course deals with only the B6th side and is very good way to learn the basic 6th style chords and gets advanced as you go.

The basis for an interest in Uni 12 is an interest in 6th type swing style music but not seeing a need or wanting a dedicated neck.
I have personally never seen the attraction for Ext E9th as the low E9th notes don't seem to be as useful or blend in a band for me.. and I play in a band with no lead guitar.
One of the reasons I wanted a U-12 was I wanted to play Boot Heal Drag.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 19 Sep 2013 1:50 pm

Ian,

If you are in or NYC, you are welcome to come out to my studio and try out a D-10, a couple of nicer S-10s and an S-12 uni.
As Bob says, the more that you dig into the E-9 tuning, the more that you realize what a work of genius it is. That said, I do like the bigger, more extended voicing on the universal for some projects. Depends on your goals.

Ollin Landers · Post by **Ollin Landers** » 19 Sep 2013 2:29 pm

Just my 2 cents.

I was a relatively new E9 player but I really wanted to learn some swing stuff. I too studied the swinging on E9 by Herb Steiner. Then just the right deal came along and even though I wasn't ready for it I bought a U-12.

I continued to play mostly E9 stuff until I "grew in to it" Now I don't know how I could play anything else. I learned not to miss the low D from the start and it's never been an issue for me.

I recently bought a 2006 Carter S-12 in excellent condition as a backup guitar and it was right in that $1500.00 range.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 19 Sep 2013 2:44 pm

Every time I play a 10 string E9th guitar,,,,, sometime during playing, my brain will scream, "Where's the low root? I need the low root here!" Took me one day to switch from a D-10 to a Uni 12 Kline.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 20 Sep 2013 12:05 pm

You know, the steel is one of the most personal of all instruments. Perhaps THE most personal. Everybody has different ideas and opinions. And everybody is right.

The question of whether or not to go to a 12 stringer should be based on what your goals are. If you want to play in a country band, you don't absolutely need the extra bass strings. Personally though, I like having them so I can comp chords under the lead guitar when he takes a ride.

If you want to play rock, the bass strings are more desirable, because let you play power chords. This is true regardless of whether your guitar has an extended E9 or an E9/B6 Uni.

If you want to play classical music like me, the extended bass notes of the U-12 tuning become very valuable. So much so that even though I don't play the B6 side of the tuning, I keep it just for the extra bass range.

This arrangement can only be played on a 12 string E9/B6 setup similar to mine, with the low B string dropping to A on the A pedal. It's can't even be played on an extended E9.

http://pedalsteelmusic.com/?p=502

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 20 Sep 2013 2:06 pm

Very impressive Mike