Depressing A Pedal Causes 3 And 6 Strings To Go Flat

Floyd Havner · Post by **Floyd Havner** » 3 Aug 2013 11:18 am

I have a Carter D10 that was built in 2003 and it has the BCT changer. I acquired this steel used when it was about 3-4 years. When I got it I noticed that the action on it was a lot stiffer than the Thomas I had been playing. I also noticed that when I depressed the A pedal it caused the 3 and 6 strings to go flat. After several lubrications the action got much easier but the problem still exists with the A pedal. There are no visible conflicts with any of the pull rods or broken string fragments in the changer. I'm at a total loss. Could this be a changer problem, tuning keys, or cabinet drop?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 3 Aug 2013 11:33 am

Cabinet drop means that all of the other strings go a bit flat when you mash the A pedal, not just 3 and 6.

Jay Yuskaitis · Post by **Jay Yuskaitis** » 3 Aug 2013 1:22 pm

Just stay away from that pedal, or do what many others have done, go back to the straight steel.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Aug 2013 2:24 pm

Earnest Bovine wrote:Cabinet drop means that all of the other strings go a bit flat when you mash the A pedal, not just 3 and 6.

He never said if all the other strings go flat. Do they??? How flat are we talking about? I can't think of any reason for just the 3rd and 6th to go flat. That would tell me that something mechanical is happening to cause the lowering finger to start actuating, which I am not sure could happen just by pressing the A pedal. There would have to be some binding or friction happening somewhere. Do 3 & 6 go back in tune after you release the A pedal?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 3 Aug 2013 2:59 pm

Is it audible or just something you see on a tuner?

Do you have a plain or a wound sixth string?

On a tuner can you see if other strings are also going flat?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Aug 2013 3:43 pm

Paul Sutherland wrote:Is it audible or just something you see on a tuner?

Do you have a plain or a wound sixth string?

On a tuner can you see if other strings are also going flat?

Precisely the reason I never leave my tuner plugged in line. If I can hear something out of tune, I will use the tuner (or just my ears). I am convinced that some of the complaints about guitar or strings not staying in tune is just a visual phenomenon caused by seeing the tuner deviate a cent or two. Most people would never hear it out of tune had it not been for seeing it on the tuner. Same with cabinet drop. Most all guitars do it, but none that I have ever owned was where you could actually hear it.

Floyd Havner · Post by **Floyd Havner** » 3 Aug 2013 5:45 pm

Yes the sound is audible, however I haven't measured it on my tuner but just what I hear it seems to be between 5-10 cents. I'm using a plain 6th 22 guage. Also I failed to state in my post I'm using the Day pedal setup on the E9th neck. I have the same exact setup on my other Carter that I bought new 2 years ago and I have no such problem with it.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 3 Aug 2013 8:34 pm

The thicker the core of a string, the more it will detune. So a 22 plain sixth string will detune somewhat more than a 20 plain, and a lot more than a 22 wound (which has a much thinner core).

Did your other Carter have a wound sixth string? If you went from a wound sixth to a plain sixth, it is not surprising that you would hear the drop. But do you hear it when you are playing?

My Emmons detunes on the sixth string (with a plain 20), and I can hear it when tuning and generally being very particular, but it's not so bad that I can't work around it. I really don't notice it when playing. I tried a compensator to bring the sixth string back up to pitch, but I didn't like what it did to the pedal action. I also have tried several times to use a 22 wound to greatly reduce the detuning (which it does), but I just don't like the tone of a wound sixth string.

Detuning/cabinet drop happens on all steels, unless it has some system to counter-act the flex caused by the higher pressure on strings due to pedal changes that raise the pitch. Conversely, all steels also rise in pitch slightly when strings are lowered by pedals or levers.

Henry Brooks · Post by **Henry Brooks** » 10 Aug 2013 11:15 am

On my MCI the sixth string would go about 15 cents flat when the A pedal was pressed. The problem turned out to be the brass rivet which attaches the lower finger on the 6th string. It was hit off center, causing a bulge on the edge of the top. The A pedal would catch the bulge causing the 6th string to lower. I moved the finger assembly to a position that didn't have a pull before it.
Henry

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 10 Aug 2013 12:14 pm

Floyd Havner wrote:Yes the sound is audible, however I haven't measured it on my tuner but just what I hear it seems to be between 5-10 cents. I'm using a plain 6th 22 guage. Also I failed to state in my post I'm using the Day pedal setup on the E9th neck. I have the same exact setup on my other Carter that I bought new 2 years ago and I have no such problem with it.

The Day setup should not make a difference. I also use the Day setup. I also use a .022p on string 6 and can not hear it go out of tune when I depress the A pedal. If it does, it is not much and certainly not enough to hear.

You may have something happening mechanically on that guitar.

Floyd Havner · Post by **Floyd Havner** » 2 Sep 2013 9:58 pm

My thanks to all who posted info and suggestions. Honestly I was loosing interest in even playing this steel. So either I pull out all of the stops and start from the ground up and cover all the bases or put it away for good. So I took off all the strings, cleaned the changer with my air compressor, took all the slack out of the linkage, restrung it on a perfectly level floor and after the nominal adjustments following a string change, it plays like a dream now with no detuning. We Jambed for 6 hours with very little retuning and none on the 3rd and 6th strings. Go figure. I don't know if it was one single thing I did or all of the above. I'm just happy with the end result.

Michael Dulin · Post by **Michael Dulin** » 3 Sep 2013 5:19 am

Could be something very simple. Are you sure you,re not slightly touching the B pedal as you play A only? 1 turn raise of the A pedal rod might cure the Problem.MD

Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Sep 2013 9:43 am

took all the slack out of the linkage...

My bets would be on this is what fixed your problem.
If the rods are pulling a bit when the string is tuned open you can chase your tail.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 7 Sep 2013 11:43 am

When did you last change your strings ??

Floyd Havner · Post by **Floyd Havner** » 9 Sep 2013 4:31 pm

Thank you Joey and Paddy, I think you both were right. No slack now in the linkage and new strings and no detuning. Enjoying this steel once again.

Floyd Havner · Post by **Floyd Havner** » 2 Oct 2013 10:42 am

Thank you Paul for suggesting a wound 6th string. The more I thought about it the more curious I got, so I bit the bullet and put a nickel wound 22 guage on. After conditioning the string for playing and making the necessary rodding adjustments, resetting the knee and pedal stops I sat down to play. I played for 30 minutes straight without having to retune. Last night I played a gig for over 2 hours without retuning: keys, hex nuts, compensator, nada. Of course a wound 22 is not as bright as a plain but I can learn to like it for the trade off. It's kinda like this guy who married a very wealthy woman who was rather "facially challenged." When asked if he married her just for her money he replied, "I could learn to love any woman but I could never learn to be wealthy."

Floyd Havner · Post by **Floyd Havner** » 2 Oct 2013 11:21 am

Thank you Paul for suggesting a wound 6th string. The more I thought about it the more curious I got, so I bit the bullet and put a nickel wound 22 guage on. After conditioning the string for playing and making the necessary rodding adjustments, resetting the knee and pedal stops I sat down to play. I played for 30 minutes straight without having to retune. Last night I played a gig for over 2 hours without retuning: keys, hex nuts, compensator, nada. Of course a wound 22 is not as bright as a plain but I can learn to like it for the trade off. It's kinda like this guy who married a very wealthy woman who was rather "facially challenged." When asked if he married her just for her money he replied, "I could learn to love any woman but I could never learn to be wealthy."

John Prather · Post by **John Prather** » 5 Oct 2013 2:54 am

I read your post a month ago before I joined SGF and I found your issue curious because there is no direct mechanical connections there. Did you check to see if the center shaft of the changer was loose. A loose shaft along with a little dirt and/or less than adequate lubrication can cause the changers to move randomly. This can also happen if the nut shaft moves. Make sure the shaft retainer screws are tight on both the changer and the nut.

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Depressing A Pedal Causes 3 And 6 Strings To Go Flat

Depressing A Pedal Causes 3 And 6 Strings To Go Flat

3&6 going flat