If you missed your chance to buy that Frypan for $45,000 back in June...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/guitar-vintage- ... 4d11938cbd
Tricone... Yikes!
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
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Scott Thomas
- Posts: 1003
- Joined: 10 Jul 2000 12:01 am
Outrageous starting bid....but...
I have never seen a National with that kind of pattern. It is quite likely a custom job. Style 3 lily of the valley engraving with the addition of those flowers. Fascinating specimen!
The price is funny given the 1988 estimate of $3,500 by Don Young...even with inflation/crazy market.
The price is funny given the 1988 estimate of $3,500 by Don Young...even with inflation/crazy market.
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Michael Kienhofer
- Posts: 143
- Joined: 15 Oct 2006 12:01 am
- Location: Goulais River,Ontario,Canada
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Alan Brookes
- Posts: 13218
- Joined: 29 Mar 2006 1:01 am
- Location: Brummy living in Southern California
His rationale for dating it to 1927 is more delusional than the price.
I'm not at home with my library as I fire off this riposte in militant high dudgeon. The A series may be 1936 (and there may have been more than one A-series) but I'm thinking 1930. (See the Lightning Bolt Style N "Great Acoustic" I wrote for ACOUSTIC GUITAR a few years ago. If memory serves, it also had an A-two digit serial number.) My guess is that the A in this case probably had to do with something like a limited series, special order, etc.
Look at the cover plate. Up until the early thirties, Styles 3 and 4 had flow-through engraving--i.e., the pattern continued from the body through the coverplate. This coverplate is engraved--but separately from the rest of the top...and in a different style? Is this a marriage of a Style 3 body and Style 4 coverplate? The coverplate looks to me like an unto-itself, non-catalog pattern. In any case, the earliest engraved tricones are in the Style 2 pattern. Somebody who does have access to Bob Brozman's book, look at the serial number list in the back and see if he documented it (or another close A-##) serial number.
Another big problem: pearloid headstock veneers as seen here on Styles 3 and 4 came in later (maybe by 1930?). Any 1927 (...28...29) Style 3 or 4 will almost certainly have a plain headstock with an inlaid pearl NATIONAL shield.
Another another big problem: a 1927 (and on into 1928) National would have used "stud" tailpieces--with string slots and posts so that either loop- or ball-end strings could have used. It's estimated that something like the first 500 Nationals had the stud tailpieces.
Not looking good for 1927, as far as I can tell. Looks like a custom-decorated regular production guitar (Brozman documented many such as this) from well after the company had become a going concern.
More nails in the coffin: Nationals, including the pre-production ones hand-assembled by John and Rudy Dopyera, were serial-numbered starting at 100 (not 101, according to Brozman.) The first dozens of these show evolving feaures--wooden soundwells, flat backs and, most damningly to the 1927 theory propounded by lightheadedgod76 on eBay--hand-soldered grille lattice strips. The $45000 wonder has regular-production stamped diamond grilles. Earliest prototypes also had seven diamond holes surrounding the coverplate. I'll bet the ebay tricone has a rounded back and metal soundwell to go with those stamped cutouts.
Anybody want to buy my 1944 Fender Telecaster? Transition logo, Phillips screws, maple-cap neck, s/n 2XXXXX. Just a hundred grand.
I'm not at home with my library as I fire off this riposte in militant high dudgeon. The A series may be 1936 (and there may have been more than one A-series) but I'm thinking 1930. (See the Lightning Bolt Style N "Great Acoustic" I wrote for ACOUSTIC GUITAR a few years ago. If memory serves, it also had an A-two digit serial number.) My guess is that the A in this case probably had to do with something like a limited series, special order, etc.
Look at the cover plate. Up until the early thirties, Styles 3 and 4 had flow-through engraving--i.e., the pattern continued from the body through the coverplate. This coverplate is engraved--but separately from the rest of the top...and in a different style? Is this a marriage of a Style 3 body and Style 4 coverplate? The coverplate looks to me like an unto-itself, non-catalog pattern. In any case, the earliest engraved tricones are in the Style 2 pattern. Somebody who does have access to Bob Brozman's book, look at the serial number list in the back and see if he documented it (or another close A-##) serial number.
Another big problem: pearloid headstock veneers as seen here on Styles 3 and 4 came in later (maybe by 1930?). Any 1927 (...28...29) Style 3 or 4 will almost certainly have a plain headstock with an inlaid pearl NATIONAL shield.
Another another big problem: a 1927 (and on into 1928) National would have used "stud" tailpieces--with string slots and posts so that either loop- or ball-end strings could have used. It's estimated that something like the first 500 Nationals had the stud tailpieces.
Not looking good for 1927, as far as I can tell. Looks like a custom-decorated regular production guitar (Brozman documented many such as this) from well after the company had become a going concern.
More nails in the coffin: Nationals, including the pre-production ones hand-assembled by John and Rudy Dopyera, were serial-numbered starting at 100 (not 101, according to Brozman.) The first dozens of these show evolving feaures--wooden soundwells, flat backs and, most damningly to the 1927 theory propounded by lightheadedgod76 on eBay--hand-soldered grille lattice strips. The $45000 wonder has regular-production stamped diamond grilles. Earliest prototypes also had seven diamond holes surrounding the coverplate. I'll bet the ebay tricone has a rounded back and metal soundwell to go with those stamped cutouts.
Anybody want to buy my 1944 Fender Telecaster? Transition logo, Phillips screws, maple-cap neck, s/n 2XXXXX. Just a hundred grand.
"Gopher, Everett?"
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Scott Thomas
- Posts: 1003
- Joined: 10 Jul 2000 12:01 am
Well, I know there are National experts (and I'm not one of them), but I do have the Brozman book. Bill, Bob's book does list some A prefix serial numbers. A13 would put this one at 1935 if it follows the normal sequence.
So, a couple of possible scenarios:
It is a 1930, which would allow room on the cover plate for the extra engraving. The top body engraving looks like variation "C" (c, 1928-30).
It's a 1935, which would argue strongly for it being a factory custom job, since body engraving "flowed through" to the cover plates by this time.
One last observation...look closely at the T-bar on the hand rest. There are engraved leaves that extend all the way across. I haven't seen that before. It seems tacked on.
So, a couple of possible scenarios:
It is a 1930, which would allow room on the cover plate for the extra engraving. The top body engraving looks like variation "C" (c, 1928-30).
It's a 1935, which would argue strongly for it being a factory custom job, since body engraving "flowed through" to the cover plates by this time.
One last observation...look closely at the T-bar on the hand rest. There are engraved leaves that extend all the way across. I haven't seen that before. It seems tacked on.
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Dale R Stiles
- Posts: 74
- Joined: 20 Sep 2012 9:07 pm
- Location: Bradenton, FL
- Contact:
Don't be so critical guys. If you read the auction he explains:
"I will hand deliver this to the new owner, that cost is built in to the sale price."
So the guitar only costs $15,000.00 --- the remaining $35,000.00 is for private jet rental for the hand delivery.
"I will hand deliver this to the new owner, that cost is built in to the sale price."
So the guitar only costs $15,000.00 --- the remaining $35,000.00 is for private jet rental for the hand delivery.
1965 Blonde Fender Deluxe 8, Rogue Jersey Lightning, Roland Cube, Polytone Mini/Teeny Brute
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Scott Thomas
- Posts: 1003
- Joined: 10 Jul 2000 12:01 am
You're right, Dale...this deal is looking better all the time!
There is some additional information by Mark Makin on that site Michael linked to above:
http://michaelmesser.proboards.com/thre ... ype-custom
Bottom line, he too believes it's a 1930 style 3 with additional engraving done later, and that this is part of a handful of "A" series instruments separate from the Chicago "A" series with which they were erroneously grouped in the Brozman list of serial numbers (and where I got the date of 1935).
There is some additional information by Mark Makin on that site Michael linked to above:
http://michaelmesser.proboards.com/thre ... ype-custom
Bottom line, he too believes it's a 1930 style 3 with additional engraving done later, and that this is part of a handful of "A" series instruments separate from the Chicago "A" series with which they were erroneously grouped in the Brozman list of serial numbers (and where I got the date of 1935).
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Alan Brookes
- Posts: 13218
- Joined: 29 Mar 2006 1:01 am
- Location: Brummy living in Southern California
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 05#2135805
Check out the above Tricone. It's a much better deal.
Check out the above Tricone. It's a much better deal.
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chris ivey
- Posts: 12703
- Joined: 8 Nov 1998 1:01 am
- Location: california (deceased)
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Allen Hutchison
- Posts: 543
- Joined: 24 Jun 2012 9:36 pm
- Location: Kilcoy, Qld, Australia