Steel Guitar Tone!

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 16 Jun 2003 12:43 pm

Does who you buy it from have any effect on the tone

? Joe

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 16 Jun 2003 2:15 pm

Tone.

I am glad we can't describe it words. I will guess that many of us own more than one guitar. I do. Fender custom T8, Fender Stringmaster T8, and an MSA SU12. All sound different, and ... I love all of them for what they are. They all have a tone that is pleasing to me. If I didn't like them I would pass them on.

imho

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Jun 2003 2:54 pm

who was appointed the "Grand Definer Of Good Tone".

Each and every one of us. There is not a person on the planet that hears the same as the person standing next to them.
Move 5 feet left and you are hearing differently in the same room.
If you like what you got and it fits with the band or bands you are playing with, then it is the right instrument for you.

We all got tone to the bone, because there is a bone in our ears that transmits the sound to our brains... and each one is a lil bit different than your friend's next to you.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 16 Jun 2003 5:34 pm

What really matters to me is…….it’s a steel guitar making those sounds, and those sounds are inherent with the marvelous characteristics of the instrument. It’s the characteristics of the instrument not the tone, which has provided steel guitar a distinct place in musical history and secures its future.

This is the "key". I play on a number of different venues, from "art" to metal/noise, and on each one I have different guitars, different amplifiers and different setups. Ultimately it all comes out of a steel guitar and it proves the versatility of these instruments.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 16 Jun 2003 6:11 pm

Reece you've said what I've always believed. We all have a tone we're listening for and it takes the different combinations of technique, amps, pickups, guitars, effects, etc... to achieve what we want to hear.

I really believe that there are some who would be surprised if they could hear the same pro player play several different brands of guitar without seeing them (a blindfold test)and try to pick which brand was being played.

I think it would be a very "ear opening" experience. I think there would be so little difference in the tone that the big majority of those who thought they could tell them apart would find that it would be pure luck if they could match the brand with the tone.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Jun 2003 6:58 pm

I can hear a difference in the inherent sound of different pedalsteels. Some work better than others for me. I can also hear a big difference when the top steel players that play the steel shows switch brands. After hearing the best of the best sound worst when they switch brands I think some brands steels just are better than others in the tone dept. when it comes to making the sound I want to hear.

Bob

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jun 2003 6:58 pm

Had a GREAT conversation with Bill Lawrence this morning about pickup impedance, inductance etc.

Other than Classical Guitar, which he is a wealth of knowledge in we talked a little about tone.

I allowed as how a "pleasing tone" is not always available to he (or she) who plays it.

I remarked as how my rig ALWAYS sounds thin and tinny right in front of my amp, and that the sound "smooths out" a ways past the bandstand.

When I "go out" I hear a lot of "muddy" guitars, unless they sound "tinny" right in front of the amp.

One remedy is to play as many do, with the amp on the floor and not pointed at ones' ears. Possibly a stage monitor with the highs cut, or just adding highs in the "board" are other "remedies".

In short, the one guitar I don't like the tone of is my own, unless I have somebody else play it and I go out front where it doesn't sound as "tinny".

Bill's quite a guy. Reminded me of some things that I've forgotten, and how sometimes "popular opinon" can be massively flawed.

"Hear Hear", I say.

"Tone is 90% 'in the hands', and 80% 'in the equipment'..." -Yogi West-

just my $.0000002

EJL

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 Jun 2003 7:39 pm

I can identify with many ideas presented so far. Like Jim and others, it takes me a while to 'dial in' a new guitar, but getting a tone that's 'acceptable' is very different from believing that there is no distinction between the tone of various instruments. When I sit down to an Emmons guitar and then a Sho-Bud, there is NO WAY that I'm going to get the same sound. I DON'T WANT TO -- AND I WON'T. I like to celebrate the difference in whatever you want to call it -- tone, timbre, whatever -- the sound that comes out of the amp. But I don't pretend for one moment that I sound the same on different brands of guitar. There are some more similar to each other than others, but every brand is different.

Like Bob, I DO hear a substantial difference in tone, for example, between how John Hughey sounded on a push-pull, a LeGrande, and a ZumSteel. I sound different playing the Zum I played for 20 years, compared to my Emmons or my Fessenden guitar I play these days.

I also agree that tone is as personal and variable as any other perception. One's senses vary from day to day and situation to situation. There are some rooms that are much harder for me to get a good sound in than others -- part of it is physics/acoustics and part of it is my interpretation of those physical phenomena.

Most steel guitars can either sound good or lousy, depending on who is playing them. I do agree that most any guitar can be made to sound good by a skilled player. But the fact remains that I've played most brands out there and there are some I wouldn't own because I don't care for how I sound playing them. The psychological effect of sounding like you want to is very important in creating a good performance.

That's my two cents' worth.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 16 Jun 2003 7:45 pm

"Tone is 90% 'in the hands', and 80% 'in the equipment'..." -Yogi West-

Is that a mathematical certainty Yogi?

If it is; I hope you're giving 170% when you're playing.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Rick[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 16 June 2003 at 08:46 PM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 16 Jun 2003 8:31 pm

Hey guys! See if this one sounds familiar. I should first explain that,like Bobby Lee,I try to make my tone fit the music I am playing. Most groups I work with play a variety,so I'm constantly adjusting tone knobs in between songs. Then on break,someone approaches me and asks me to show him my amp settings so he can get the same tone I do?!%#*

~~W.C.~~

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 16 Jun 2003 8:35 pm

I have heard tones that I didn't toally care for but that is the beauty of what we do...The playr was happy with it and that is all that matters because he played well because of it. I go to the extremes I have a D-10 that I'll compare to an emmons anyday and I also have an old woodneck Universal that I love how it sounds like an old Sho~Bud...Earlier someone said technique as one of four factors i think technique should be 1st on the list...It took me twenty years of trying every gadget known to man to realize that the "tone " solution was right under my nose...Tone is in your hands(technique ) I think more than anywhere else. I haveplayed direct into a PA system and still achieved good tone... It just amazes me how simple that was once I figured it out...Good thread reece see ya all

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 16 Jun 2003 10:57 pm

Well, there goes my "black" Emmons theory.

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Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Jun 2003 8:45 am

Think how horrible it would be if we all got the same tone. It would be like , if we all looked alike, or all played exactly the same, this would be bad. The differenceses in our sound make us what we are , "our playing personality". Good or different,I feel our "Tone" along with other qualities in our "playing personality" needs to be original, our own, we need to be ourselves, this means tone is a personal this that is us, like our finger prints.

Content edited for spelling only, [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 June 2003 at 09:52 AM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 June 2003 at 04:48 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Jun 2003 9:30 am

Now, with tremoundous respect to all, I'd like to offer an opinion about modern tone,
It has been said: "That good old tone is a thing of the past!" To me, good tone will never be a thing of the past. After talking to several players that play different instruments, sax, violins,pianos etc, they really thought it was funny that there is such a thing as a "Modern tone" as opposed to a good tone that is an "Old tone".
I agree that good tone is always desirable and "In Vogue". I guess "Modern Tone" would work a lot better with "Rap" music though, . Yes, I truly believe that good timbre is always something to strive for. I don't say, "who cares if it sounds bad, it's the modern sound". Rap is the modern sound in music too, but I don't have to like it. I love guitars that sound good, don't care for thoses that don't. I have a choice, I sound fine on some , horrible on others, I'll choose the one I sound best on, Duh!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Jun 2003 1:51 pm

Well, among other things like Classical Guitar Arrangements from Tarrega and Sor, and Andres Segovia, bottles of vodka with his famous neighbors, Bill Lawrence and I discussed Steel Guitars inre to the "Tone Situation" that's been boiling up like Mideast Violence since the industry went to hell, and people are "starting to care".

He asked what kind of Guitar I had. I told him an AL neck ProIII, and a Professional.

He said that by all means I should hold on to both of them. Lloyd still has and plays his..

I think I'll do that.

There's just something about that "Old Sho~Bud" sound.. Or is it "tone"... or is it "Timbre".

Larry: Where did you get the money to buy TWO Standells..? Never mind.. I don't want to know.. Are they Lime Green/Aztec Bronze?

(BTW, listening to Larry Behm's Emmons with his new TTs I realized that his two necks sound DIFFERENT. No resistor or cap, and I'm wondering why that is.. The C 6 neck is brighter for some reason. Switching?)

Anyhow....

EJL

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 17 Jun 2003 2:21 pm

First I'm so glad to hear that all I have to do is to go out and buy and start playing THE BRAND of steel. My sound will improve 80%--WOW what am I waiting for! Now who wants to sell it to me? Have you ever gone to a Ford dealer and the salesman says that a Ford isn't the right car for you so you had better go to a Chevy dealer? What is it going to cost me--"I'll give you the best deal around!!" Joe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Jun 2003 3:28 pm

One thing sure Joe, good equipment won't hurt most folks, but them again, It moght not help you much! (Ha! Ha!).
I'm sure you are a great cook though, and I intend to find out next time I go to snow country. So get ready, I love Italian food!
We have a lot of catching up to do.

Now after reading Maurices original post, which was very well worded and thought out, I, like most of you agree with it's content.
I feel it could use a lot more discussion on a couple of points, but I also feel this "horse" has been beat to death and everything that could be said, has been in the past few years.
I loved what Big "M" said about it not mattering what the tone was as long as a steel guitar made it. How do you argue with that? Yes, A steel guitar sounds better "bad" than most instruments do "good". (Put that on a T-shirt).
I still think this this is a great thread. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 June 2003 at 04:36 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 June 2003 at 04:38 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 17 Jun 2003 4:01 pm

Bobbe- no one can help me not even uncle Doug,Boy he has tried. With all the steel players pitching in to get a better sound it can only help the Steel Guitar . Joe

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Jun 2003 4:10 pm

Well, I hate to start off every answer with Well, but..

Well..

If a guy really wanted to sound like one of the top, if not THE "THE TOP GUY" he just might go get a fender cable steel and an amp with a ratty 8 inch speaker. I heer'd it's been done that-a-way...

In fact, further listening to "THIS GUY" really objectively, I'd have to say that with a few exceptions, on his "instrumental albums", the "tone" sounded rather "inferior" to what's GRAGT lately. It sounded thin, ratty, and rather raw. Not "Sweet" at all.

I think what's more important is to play "in tune", "on time", and "with feeling".

Sometimes "The Music" makes you happy;

Sometimes the music makes you sad.

Sometimes it's meant to sooth you;

And sometimes make you mad. -EJL-

A good friend, and fellow steel player, one night gave me the compliment of saying that my "tone" was "Subtly Spiteful".

I've always thought that was the best compliment I'd ever gotten.

I'm looking forward to the new True Tone pickup. It should make it much easier to destroy a couple telecasters I have in mind...

(Sometimes I look at "it" from the perspective of my fellow band members, or "victims" as they sometimes refer to themselves. Then I decide not to..)

All I ask of a Steel Guitar is to stay in tune, return the changes true every time, and have a wide enough string spacing for me to navigate it. Most everything else, you can change. I suppose I could isolate the pickup with rubber if I so desired. I'm actually thinking of solidifying the mount more on the new TT with cut to height brass tubes instead of springs.

The discussion/debate concerning tone will continue forever because there is no basis for conclusion, nor will everyone ever agree on a specified procedure which would result in such a conclusion. The tone of any instrument is a matter of opinion relative to the likes and dislikes of each individual listener.[

Boy. I guess that pretty much says it all.

EJL

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Jun 2003 4:20 pm

I have received several E-mails about a former post I made that folks wish me to word more correctly, so I will. This is what I meant to state:

"Many things make a difference, but without a decent sounding guitar, all is naught. Folks who can't realize this are destined to be relegated to the ranks of "also rans" when it comes to tone.

Thanks for the e-mails guys, most of all, Jeff Evans. I sure don't mind being corrected. The thought was there but the spelling left a little to be desired!

Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 June 2003 at 05:21 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Jun 2003 4:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Larry: Where did you get the money to buy TWO Standells..? Never mind.. I don't want to know.. Are they Lime Green/Aztec Bronze?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> #1. I ain't a tellin' #2. A picture is worth a thousand words.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 17 Jun 2003 4:52 pm

For that kind of money, I'd want a few more knobs.. Unless of course those lights blink..

Seriously though I know they're definitely the state of the art, but I can remember playing wih a guy with one of those old 60s solid state low watt ones with no reverb. Seemed like it fit real good with the Sure Vocal Master PA. Kind of like Danelectro. Relegated to Edselesque antiquation, and then re-emerging on top of the heap.

Just so I know, are they as good as everyone says? Pure tube? Hybrid? Wattage?

Eventually my Nvl400 is going to keep my Session 500 company in my basement, and I'm not a real Webb fan. Hell, if I can spend 15+ thousand bucks on a bike...

Nice looking amps.

EJL

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 17 Jun 2003 5:12 pm

They're the first generation solid state with germanium transistors. Very tubelike sound with more headroom -- and not nearly as 'spensive. These are the 100W 1970 Custom XV model -- the one Buddy Emmons played through for the Bell Cove concert that was recorded and released recently. I bought the pair for under a grand. I've played through a 25L15 and I didn't think it was worth more than five times what these are comparatively.

FWIW, I've had both guitar and steel players come up to me at gigs with statements like "boy there's nothing like those old tube amps". I just smile and say "you bet".

And, yes, this is about steel guitar tone. My new assertion is 'IT'S ALL IN THE AMP'

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 17 June 2003 at 06:17 PM.]

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 17 Jun 2003 5:50 pm

Bobbe S...Very interesting post. You stated to Martin “your equipment is the top of what’s available today. It’s the folks that don’t have the equipment the quality of yours that have to make excuses”.

We have all heard incredible players playing old equipment who don’t have to make excuses to anyone. In my opinion, this indisputable fact contradicts that statement, thereby rendering it invalid.

You also stated “ without a decent sounding guitar, all is for nought”.

This statement is non conclusive, because no one person or group of persons have been designated to make tone determinations, nor has a criteria been considered to my knowledge, much less established, which would determine what a “decent” guitar sounds like.

You also stated “folks that can’t realize this are destined to be relegated to the ranks of also rans when it comes to tone”.

I respectfully disagree….no one with true talent, determination and a positive attitude is condemned to anonymity just because they don’t get a specific sound.

As an example, the sound Santo and Johnny achieved on “Sleepwalk” was exceptional, yet considered by many to be non traditional even in the day when it was recorded. To my knowledge, their recording is one of, if not the biggest selling recordings featuring instrumental steel guitar in history.

Today we have a talented individual who is making a very large dynamic impact and contribution to steel guitar by the name of Robert Randolph who’s sound is like nothing I have ever heard before. I personally both love and appreciate the sound of Santo and Johnny as well as Robert Randolph. I also appreciate the contribution they made and are making to steel guitar.

Examining these two examples hopefully will lead some to the conclusion that the goal should be for everyone to intentionally try to sound different than others, which in reality has demonstrated a blueprint for success while proving the point, there is no such thing as “the” sound.

You stated “Its easier for the manufacturer of a guitar that sounds below average to try to convince you with his mouth than it is to do research, make changes and spend money to actually make the guitar sound better”.

I know of no way anyone could possibly determine specifically how much time, effort or money has been expended by any guitar company concerning sound research or any other research.

I must admit, I would be greatly surprised were someone to come forward and explain specifically how they attained the necessary information with which to make an informed and valid comment about such things.

History speaks for itself, therefore the truth is and has been present for all to see, therefore it is perfectly clear why it was not necessary to mention which guitar company or companies were referenced.

I have yet to see anything which specifically defines “good tone”, “that sound”, “modern tone”, “the sound” or any other acronym which might apply, nor have I ever seen or heard of any specific criteria for determination. Further I know of no one who is or should be considered by anyone as “the sound” expert, (other than self appointed) although admittedly I have know a few who mistakenly felt they were.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 17 Jun 2003 6:00 pm

...BONG!...and there's the bell for the end of round three...[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 17 June 2003 at 07:01 PM.]