Improvising over minor7/b5chords?

Ad Kersten · Post by **Ad Kersten** » 31 May 2003 11:08 am

I am trying to find my way playing jazz on PSG and I would like to have your opinions on who to improvise over II-V-I chord changes.
In D minor f.i. you have the chords Em7/b5-A7/b9-Dm.

First question:
For Em7/b5 you can play notes from the locrian scale of E, but you can also think of it as playing notes from the major F-scale (but with the root on E of course). Thinking in F major seems more simple but if you think in E locrian, it makes you more flexible in dealing with different song structures, I think.

Second question on the same chord:
Would you play notes from the scale without any pedals, or would you start from the chords' position on the neck, like in the 7th position with pedal 6 down, or in position 10 with pedal 5 down?

Any suggestions on how to approach this?

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[This message was edited by Ad Kersten on 31 May 2003 at 12:11 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 31 May 2003 11:35 am

Hi Ad I use it both ways. Off 2 with P6 and 5 F
Often from the P5+6 chord position, but also linearly from the key chord or the chords before and after it. Depends what I want at the time. Depends on what comes before and after in the whole piece.

The root is a nice place to hold your position from, but it isn't neccesary to start a line from it specificly every time. IMHO

Have you been following the C6 modal thread in No peddlers?... you should it is right up your alley.

Rules are meant to help you understand, and are also meant to be broken.
But no playing tri-tones in church

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 31 May 2003 at 12:38 PM.]

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 31 May 2003 2:09 pm

I like using the harmonic minor scale over minor II V I progressions. In this case, a D harmonic minor scale ( 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 1 ). The major 7th gives it an interesting sound. It also has the notes for an A augmented chord in it, which I use as an arpeggio sometimes. [This message was edited by Bob Watson on 31 May 2003 at 03:14 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Watson on 31 May 2003 at 03:17 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Watson on 31 May 2003 at 03:19 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 31 May 2003 3:15 pm

If it's of any help, a m7b5 is just like an inversion of a minor 6 chord, i.e. Dm7b5= Fm6. In fact, Dizzy Gillespie would think of a typical ii V progression as a IVm6 to V.

D F Ab C
F Ab C D

same thing, harmonically. That minor 6 chord is a big part of the Django/ Gyspy Jazz vocabulary.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 31 May 2003 3:39 pm

34 years ago a group of friends and myself went to hear George Benson at the Jazz Workshop in Boston. Afterwards we were all talking with him and someone asked him what was the the big breakthrough for him. He replied "when I realized that an A-7b5 was the same thing as an F dom 9 chord."

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 31 May 2003 3:44 pm

Yes Chas, which means the Dm7b5 and Fm6 are also Bb79 (without the root)...the same cluster of notes can have different functions harmonically, which really simplifies life on the steel :0

[This message was edited by John McGann on 31 May 2003 at 04:45 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 31 May 2003 3:52 pm

If you like the sound of the natural ninth in your m7b5 chords (some do, some don't), you can also use the G melodic minor scale for Em7b5.
-John

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 31 May 2003 4:16 pm

I like using the harmonic minor scale over minor II V I progressions.

A beautiful approach. The natural 7th of the harmonic minor scale gives a heightened tension when used over a related dominant 7th chord, creating a resolution to I Major that is all the more profound.

Also, the C# in a D harmonic minor provides the major 3rd for the V7 A7th chord, which allows the chord to fully express itself. Since the natural minor scale (here it's D) doesn't give birth to a V dominant 7th chord, but only a V minor7th, (here it would be A minor 7th), a I natural minor scale (strictly) doesn't mesh with a V dominant 7th. (Not to say that you can't wizz over it so that no one will know, but you'd be missing the beauty of playing the major third of the V7 and resolving up a half-step (C# to D) when resolution occurs to D minor. That's pretty powerful stuff once you learn how to use it.

Since the natural minor scale can only give birth to a V minor 7th chord (in our example the minor third of the chord would be C,) classical composers decided they really wanted that true V7 chord and the dynamism that goes with it. That's why they created the harmonic minor scale, by raising the 7th degree of the natural minor.

Later, they also raised the 6th degree, and the two raised notes created another scale, called the Melodic Minor. You can also talk about approaches utilizing melodic minor, such as over the minor key ii-V-I. In traditional jazz, the melodic minor actually plays much more of a role than the harmonic.

If someone is interested in learning some quick harmonic minor scales to try the above stuff with, remember that any major scale is the same group of notes as the natural minor three half-steps below (F major equals D natural minor.) So,if you want to get some harmonic minor stuff from major scales that you already know, just raise the 5th in the related major scale (you could call this an 'augmented major.')

Here, someone could be playing along in D minor using the F major scale, and then just raise the C to C# when they got into the minor ii-V7, or even just the V7. That would be more dynamic than playing the harmonic minor over the I minor chord also.

About the minor 7th b5 chord: In F major, the vii minor 7th b5 chord (Em7b5) contains the same notes as the ii minor 6th (Gm6),and the V9th chord (C9th). This is a beautiful relationship that can be used in many ways.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 31 May 2003 4:18 pm

Looks like we were posting at the same time. I repeated much of what was already being said. What a bunch of theory vultures we are!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 31 May 2003 5:08 pm

What a bunch of theory vultures we are!

It all flys out the window in the heat of the moment....but it's fun to talk about.

Sam Minnitti · Post by **Sam Minnitti** » 31 May 2003 5:45 pm

You can also experiment with the following to increase the tension:

D Melodic Minor (D, E, F, G, A, B, C#)

F Major Bebop ( F, G, A, Bb, C, C#, D, E)

E Phrygian ( E, F, G, A, B, C, D)

E Alt ( E, F, G, G#, Bb, C, D )

A 1/2 tone/whole-tone diminished (A, Bb, C, C#, D#, E, F#, G)

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www.samminnitti.com

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 31 May 2003 10:10 pm

A few more comments on the melodic minor scale:

Speaking just for myself, I personally wasn't initially very excited about it; I thought of it only as something to use (strictly speaking) over a I minor 6th or I minor-major 7th chord. Also, the scale by itself doesn't sound all that neat. It was only when I began to discover the ways that a melodic minor with one root could be substituted over chords with other roots that I began to fall in love with the scale.

John Steele indicates one of the common ways above -- playing a melodic minor over a m7b5 chord a step and a half below the scale's root.

It can also be played a 5th above, or a half-step above a 7th chord. Without getting into specifics that can be seen with analysis of chord tones, the first way is more "inside" sounding and the second more "outside." (What Sam above calls "the altered scale" can be played by playing a melodic minor a half-step up.)

These are just the more common applications of melodic minor.

The other big breakthrough I had with the melodic minor is when I found out that many jazz players often think of it more as a dorian mode with a natural 7th, and use it as a substitution for dorian, particularly in the way dorian fits into the whole modal scheme.

The best example of this would probably be a ii-V7 in a major key. Jazz guys are well aware of what's called a "V minor substitution" over a 7th chord. That is playing minor stuff (like the dorian mode) a fifth above a dominant 7th chord. It becomes convenient in the major key ii-V because one can start with dorian on the ii minor, and just stay with dorian over the V7 as well. This kind of thing works really well for guys who have a lot of blues-based minor chops -- which may include dorian and pentatonic ideas -- that they want to exploit in new ways. The melodic minor can be used in this situation just by raising the dorian's 7th tone. This is particularly helpful over the V7 chord, as it gives the #4 tone for that chord. You can use this V minor substitution for a dominant 7th chord anywhere you use that chord. This may lead to a dramatically different result than, say, just playing the relevant major scale over the whole ii-V-I. At least it opened up some pretty big doors for me on regular guitar. I'm not quite far enough along on E9 pedal steel to fluidly apply what I'm talking about on that.

To get a handle on some positions for playing melodic minor, you could also think of it as a major scale with a b3.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 2 Jun 2003 4:32 pm

The "big picture" is that the whole progression can be seen as coming from the D harmonic minor scale, D E F G A Bb C#, The chord tones for each are derived from the scale- Em7b5 is E G Bb D, A7 is A C# E G (up another 3rd and you get Bb for the b9). So you can arpeggiate each chord, but realize the scale tones all work too, because the chords are "born" out of the scale.[This message was edited by John McGann on 02 June 2003 at 05:33 PM.]

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 2 Jun 2003 6:05 pm

Oh darn !!!!! There goes the 55 11 intro !!! -

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 3 Jun 2003 4:57 pm

Another good trick with -7b5 chords, is that you can play the same riff up a minor third to create an altered dominant sound.

Example in eighth notes-

D-7b5 G7b9 C-
D,E,F,Ab, G,F,D,E F,G,Ab,B, Bb,Ab,F,G C

Like anything else, this gets old after a while, but its worth the time to work up a couple of these licks because they have a nice effect.

Personally, I prefer the sound of the Melodic Minor scale from 6 to 6, followed by an altered dominant scale.

Example-
D-7b5 (F Melodic Minor 6 to 6)
D,E,F,G,Ab,Bb,C

G7alt (Ab melodic minor, 7 to 7)
G,Ab,Bb,Cb,Db,Eb,F

Good luck with it.

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 4 Jun 2003 7:46 am

Outstanding thread.

I was just thinking about C6 neck and this stuff last night and today... specifically.

Thanks to all of you for your terrific posts and theory.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 04 June 2003 at 08:49 AM.]

Ad Kersten · Post by **Ad Kersten** » 12 Jun 2003 1:24 pm

Thanks to all of you. I am already trying some of the options offered here. It's really nice to explore my steelguitar with this music, after playing country for so long.

Ad

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