working with electric guitarists

Roger Snively · Post by **Roger Snively** » 16 May 2003 7:18 am

I generally insist that the lead guitar player set his amp up on a chair and lean it back, or up on a high chair, so they can hear themselves. At my age (66) they think I know what I'm talking about (really gottem fooled). This seems to help a bunch. If not, I then remind them that I have three boys well over six feet, who can easily break bones. I've always heard that, if you can't hear the rhythm guitar, you're to loud.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 16 May 2003 8:56 am

I once saw a well rehearsed band with 6 pieces, and 4 lead instrments. Lead guitar, steel, fiddle and keyboards. And nobody ever stepped on anybody. They told me they made written outlines of every tune, with each fill earmarked for a particular player. Each player had freedom to play what he/she wanted when it was his/her turn, but everybody had to lay out until it was their turn. There were also places where they traded 4s or played in harmony.

It CAN be done. It just takes a little maturity.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 16 May 2003 9:23 am

Amen Mike..
A country Band without a Steel..or a Tele"

NOT

What are you guys thinking ?

If your guitar player aint cuttin' get a new one.It is not the guitar, it's the player.

Call me

I'm the right guy..

If you have a guitar player that does not know how to play with a band or steel player..tell him to call me..I'll set him ( or her ) straight .

I pretty much couldn't imagine some of those Alan Jackson tunes without Brent and Paul tearing it up..or those Scaggs tunes without Bruce and Ray..Does Highway 40 Blues come to mind about now ?

Just get a new player or beat the ever loving C..P out ot the existing one.

You wanna get him to stop playing ? put a piece of sheet music or a chord chart in front of him...

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 16 May 2003 at 10:26 AM.]

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 16 May 2003 12:48 pm

I started the thread with mostly honorable intentions, to talk about the practical aspects of the interaction between guitar and steel, and perhaps a little to provoke some of the blunt and colorful responses I have come to expect from forum members. In keeping with the worthier intentions, here are my thoughts.

I play most of the rhythm, take the fewest fills, and take the fewest rides. We have a fiddler who either plays fills, chunks some rhythm or stands there (and takes rides of course). For rhythm, I favor four to the bar, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, with a moving bass line, or play pluck-chunk, pluck- chunk, either with a moving bass line or alternating root and fifth. I prefer to avoid the upper register of the guitar, and seldom play the high E string when playing rhythm, because the steel shines up there.

For variety, John will play rhythm on pedal steel while I play fills, or while I lay out and the fiddle fills. I seem to be against playing rhythm at the same time as John, because I think it muddies the sound, but maybe I have not listened closely enough or need to rethink it. For his rhythm playing, I prefer him strumming chords as opposed to playing thumb - finger pull, which sounds too percussive and accentuates the off beat when the treble strings are pulled.

When I do play fills, I don’t do many pick and finger rolls or slidely chord things, because it sounds comparatively pathetic after the steel. (At least mine does). I have started to work those things back in a little bit.

John and I also play some twin guitar parts, and of course fiddler Tom has joined in on that.

I will echo what George McClellan said, that adding an extra instrument takes a lot of readjustment. When we added fiddle several months ago, John was the one who had to make the most adjustments, since pedal steel had been doing most of the fill work, and now we had fiddle noodling around. John has tried to play more rhythm while Tom fiddles fills, but I give him the dog eye (see above), and he also sprinkles in harmonics or arpeggio accents, or plays sustained chordal pads.

With steel, guitar, fiddle and the different things the bass player does, we have a variety of textures for our own musical interest, and we hope for that of our audience.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 16 May 2003 11:37 pm

Most of what's been discussed so far are some of the problems that may arise in a COUNTRY band, and I appreciate such insights. I've played both electric and PSG in a ROCK band, and for me the problem was not one of competition between players but what one ought to be playing and when.

I wanted to work the steel into as many songs as I saw fit, but the bassist and other guitarist in the band frowned on that idea. I'm the kind of player that likes to experiment once in a while, and sometimes I overstep the boundaries of conventional wisdom.

For example, the band wanted to try playing Poison's 'Every Rose Has Its Thorn'. The original recording features acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass, and drums. The song is in the key of G, I believe. Good country key. So instead of playing electric, I sat behind the PSG and played some sweet sustaining chords with the E9th A and B pedals going. I liked it, but the bassist thought it sounded rather unorthodox.

Oh well, live and learn.

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 17 May 2003 3:33 am

We recently exchanged guitarists without having much time to rehearse the repertoire, so I told him I'd basically do fills during choruses, and he or the fiddler would do fills during verses. Then we went through the song list and looked at the exceptions to the rule. Worked out great, nothing to complain about!

Hans

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 17 May 2003 4:05 am

I've recently been in a regular jam with a fiddle player and I concur with all the comments above. He's always out of tune and plays over everyone. It's like a conversation where one person never stops talking - ever. I love the nights when he can't make it.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 May 2003 2:12 am

Leslie, Orthodoxy is greatly over rated by many players.
But to each their own "poison"

Page Wood · Post by **Page Wood** » 19 May 2003 10:39 am

What ever happened to the concept of band LEADER? I know it's not very democratic, but the best bands I played in always had one person (usually the songwriter or arranger- and typically the keyboard or rhythm player) calling the shots. Even in a jam situation you look to him for a wink or a nod...

Andy Zynda · Post by **Andy Zynda** » 19 May 2003 10:53 am

I've been lucky enough to be asked to sit in with just about every type of band there is. Jazz to bluegrass & everything in-between.

Why?
It's not enough to know exactly what to play. You also need to know what NOT to play, and when.

Danny Gatton was the master of this attitude. He could mix with country, jazz, rock, blues, swing, funk, everything, and it always sounded "just right".
It's why he and Buddy Emmons sounded so amazing together.
-andy-[This message was edited by Andy Zynda on 19 May 2003 at 11:56 AM.]

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 21 May 2003 8:02 am

Everyone rightfully has their personal favorites and thoughts on this subject. But back in the olden days BEFORE "attitudes" became the norm.....
Billy Robinson (steel) and Grady Martin
(lead guitar) never exhibited ANY of the negatives that one reads in this post. Were these front runners of their time working in a fog or did they really know something of value here?
Jerry Byrd (steel) and Zeke Turner and/or
Chet Atkins (lead guitar) never seemed to
have any conflicts in their memorable twin guitar examples.
Speedy West (steel) and Jimmy Bryant (lead guitar) likewise, never displayed any of the conflicts mentioned within this post.
Not at all in THEIR professional circle, I can say several of the bands I've worked with
enjoyed the participation of exceptionally fine lead guitarists. We played dozens of twin guitar (two-part); dozens of (3-part)with steel and lead; dozens of (3 part) with steel, lead and fiddle...........etc.
We NEVER experienced the "walking on" phenomenon so often encountered this day and age. Now Eric can certainly enlighten you folks about an EXTREMELY LOUD, PIERCING, musically DYSFUNCTIONAL LEAD GUITAR PICKER THAT SIMPLY HAS AN ATTITUDE ABOUT HIS BEING THE BESTEST WHAT IS, HAS NEVER FIGURED OUT THAT HE DOES NOT NEED A BAND AS HE IS THE SOLE PERFORMER IN THE GROUP PLAYING LOUDER AND ALL OF THE TIME WITHOUT EVER SHUTTING UP. So sad, as he's a great person, but definitely lacks that quality that seperates "professionalism" from just another hack with a bad attitude.
The old Red Foley tunes with Hank Garland, Grady Martin and Billy Robinson....are classic examples of what constitues "GREAT" twin guitar work. There's more to music
than Lefty Frizzel and Merle Haggard.....and has been around a long, long time. Give it a listen some time.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 21 May 2003 8:17 am

...this thread reminds me of the wannabe recording star frontman and vocalist that I once worked with for a short period....

His comments...I don't need no damn band, I can sell myself with just me playing my guitar.

....I have often wondered whatever happened to him!....

Gene
www.genejones.com

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 21 May 2003 8:42 am

Ray, I've run across too many guitar players just like the one you described who feels they have to be "the star." The shame is some of them have good chops/licks/musical knowledge. I describe it as, "million dollar hands, ten cent head."

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 21 May 2003 2:17 pm

GUITARIST AVAILABLE FOR PAYING GIGS
Has sixth sense for tasteful rhythm playing, professional demeanor, stage experience, deep respect for those who can say a lot with a little, and equipment. Must be willing to let me drool over your shoulder as you play some crazy cool line on the steel guitar. Call 512-826-1816. Ask for Tony.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 21 May 2003 10:18 pm

Hey Tony, good luck! But hey, I thought Austin was "the live music capitol of the world" and full of bands and work.....not? I've never been there, been about everywhere else but never made it through Austin...was thinking about moving there before decided to retire south of the border.....would love to hear your take on the music scene there...email me if you'd rather not post it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 22 May 2003 2:37 am

I lived in Austin for a period in the early and mid 80's, and it was full of great guitarists and live music then - that was the problem. Every bar owner could get a good band to play for peanuts, and even the "premium" gigs payed mediocre, because everyone was replaceable. One of the most famous bars in Austin was the Continental Club, right up the street from my house. Tiny place, black ceiling, black walls, black floor, the toilet often didn't work so people used the alley etc. I used to pay a $1.98 cover charge to see a hot young local picker named Stevie Ray Vaughn - before the Grammy. You're better off in a market where there aren't so many musicians, then they have to hire you.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 May 2003 2:46 am

Buddy sounds amazing with Danny Gatton..true

Buddy sounds amazing regardless..

Band leaders..most of them just have the title and don't or can't control the band..they just get the $$ at the end of the night and split it up...

Ok, what ever Tony in Texas is charging for playing guitar on a gig, I'll do it for $2 less...unless it's zero and I have to pay the $2...then he can have the gig...

Whats important here is that the guitar players name is TONY...

tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 May 2003 at 03:47 AM.]

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 22 May 2003 5:42 am

Jim, David Mason pretty much summed up what happened to Austin. There are so many bands and so many musicians (esp. guitar players) that club owners often pay bands little more than free beer. This has led to a degeneration of showmanship on the local scene. Most bands have "rotating members" (I HATE that). In my opinion, the continental club is the best in town, but they charge outrageous covers. The other day, I talked the better half into going there to see Junior Brown. Got there and they wanted $22 bucks a piece! Mind you, it would have been every penny worth it, but we need to eat this month. One of the reasons I've taken up the pedal steel is to make myself marketable.

Just between us, I think Nashville is the live music capitol. Austin is the Mexican resaurant capitol.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 22 May 2003 7:51 am

I thought I'd learned the principal of staying out of the way until it was appropriate to play - then I got a gig with songwriter Sonny Curtis in the late-'80s.

Right from day one of rehearsal he made it clear what he wanted - space, clarity, sympathy with the material and rigid control of the overall volume level.

His songs were wonderful, and he's a fine guitarist - I've played with some monster musicians in my time, as well as in some exciting situations, but I don't think I've ever played in a better 'band'...

I don't suppose Sonny will get to read this, but I thank him for the experience - and the music lesson - anyway.

For the record it was: Sonny, me, Gerry Hogan on guitars and stuff, Brian Hodgson on Bass, Mike Bell on piano and Gerry Conway on drums - the BEST drummer I ever heard!

------------------
Roger Rettig

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 22 May 2003 7:54 am

L.A. has the same problem. There are thousands of great players who come here from all over the country to make it in "the biz' who wind up playing in clubs, and the pay has gone to practically nothing.

Last I heard, the best players in town were earning $35-40 a night. 25 years ago I was earning $50-60.

We also have a lot of very good Mexican restaurants. Do you think there may be a corrolation between Mexican food and too many guitar players competing for too few jobs?

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 22 May 2003 8:32 am

In my early years, my day-job paid all the bills except there was no money left over for food. If I had a Saturday nite playing job my wife and I existed for another week.....if I worked both Friday and Saturday nite, we ate out....hamburgers, five for a dollar!

Gene
www.genejones.com

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 22 May 2003 11:24 am

Yep, the biz is tough and it's tougher now than it was 20 years ago....some of you might remember a thread I started almost 2 years ago called "is live music what it used to be" (or something like that) and I think the overall consensus was NO. Hate to say it that even out here in Kansas I'm making much better than the pay mentioned, and more than I was finding in Las Vegas. Go figure. Well nobody said life was fair, but supply and demand sums up a lot of it. Can't wait to see what supply and demand for steel is in Mexico City. I'll be living about an hour outside the city but looking for music work in the city. I know there's almost no steel players there, sure will be interesting to find out whether there's a demand or indifference to steel guitar. I'll let y'all know...

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 29 May 2003 9:14 am

I had an opportunity to play with a feller,Larry Welborn, who as a kid, played garage bands with Buddy Holly before they formed up the Crickets. He also co-wrote some of the Buddy tunes. Anyways, the band etiquete was great when I played bass with Larry. The other pickers and I respected Larry's experience, and we had no stage problems. We got along best if we played "for the sake of making the song the best we could", and set egos aside.>>> In our area you can still play a few "Cut & Shoots" for about $40-$50 a man for a four piece. Whats killin' live bands around here is karioke.

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 30 May 2003 2:31 am

AAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUURRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! He said the evil "K" word!!!!!!!!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 30 May 2003 4:35 am

The K word is for people who have NO CHANCE
to ever actually make music on their own.

All us types that actually work hard at it...

Oh them boys jest do ma backin' tracks
so's ah kin be a a Staar en this here bar!