Any steel players who are also Plumbers?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 7:50 am

I've got a very weird plumbing problem at home. A week ago we had a new clothes washer installed. That just involves hooking up two hoses and plugging the durn thing in. Done.

Then we noticed that upstairs in the sink in the master bathroom, the cold water tap ran HOT! The only thing that had changed in our house was the new washer, but I can't imagine how that could be related.

So we did some tests:

1) We turned OFF both the cold and hot taps to the washer and waited about 30 minutes, then tried the upstairs sink again. Result: COLD water!

2) We turned the taps back ON to the washer and tried the upstairs sink again. Result: HOT water!

We have repeated these tests multiple times, always with the same results.

What the heck??

And this is happening without even RUNNING the washer; just having the hot and cold taps turned on. So when the taps are on, I figure there's really just a flexible pipe of stagnant hot water and a flexible pipe of stagnant cold water between the tap and the washer, going nowhere, since the washer isn't turned on and flowing any water.

So how could this possibly HAPPEN?? Both our plumber and our appliance dealer are mystified.

Any ideas out there in steel-guitar-land??

Weird, huh?

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 16 Jul 2013 8:01 am

Jim, I'm not a plumber, but I was a pipefitter for many years. I would check to see if the hoses connected to the washer are connected to the correct inlets on the washer. Maybe even switch the hoses and see what happens. If that doesn't seem wrong, the problem is in the washer itself. There is a "mixing valve" built it to it somewhere. That allows you to mix the hot and cold, say if you want to use "warm" water for the wash. These mixing valves are designed to not allow either the hot or cold water to "backflow" into the other side. If you continue to have a problem, I would contact the manufacturer of the washer, and see what they say. If they can't help, you should have the washer exchanged for a different one.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 16 Jul 2013 8:11 am

Jimbeaux, I believe the problem is the new washer uses the "Day" setup while the old one used "Emmons".

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 16 Jul 2013 8:13 am

Randy you are funny man!!!!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 8:34 am

Bill Moore wrote:I would check to see if the hoses connected to the washer are connected to the correct inlets on the washer. Maybe even switch the hoses and see what happens. If that doesn't seem wrong, the problem is in the washer itself. There is a "mixing valve" built it to it somewhere. That allows you to mix the hot and cold, say if you want to use "warm" water for the wash. These mixing valves are designed to not allow either the hot or cold water to "backflow" into the other side. If you continue to have a problem, I would contact the manufacturer of the washer, and see what they say.

Well the washer is still under full warranty, of course, and the appliance folks are going to order a new set of valves for it and replace the valves (which would include that cross-valve you mentioned), so we'll see if that works. We did, of course, check that the hoses are connected to the right sides of the washer and they were. Thanks, Bill.

Randy: That's just "plumb wrong" but thanks for illustrating what ya get when you ask a plumbing question to a steel player... On the other hand, if I ever have a drywall question, I'll know where to go!

Shorty Rogers · Post by **Shorty Rogers** » 16 Jul 2013 8:35 am

Jim, I think Bill is on the right track. Me thinks the the mixing valve may well be involved, assuming the hoses are properly hooked up. Try setting the wash/rinse temp on the washer to cold/cold. Turn the washer on so that the solenoids that operate the intake valves have a chance to power up and move in the event that one is stuck. Turn the washer off and test the bath sink water temp. Next try the same thing with the washer temp set to hot. Depending on what may change, you might get a better sense of what is going on. Another thing to check is if your house has a recirculating pump for the hot water. These pumps push hot water through a loop that allows for instant hot water at taps some distance from the water heater, like upstairs. It is possible that between a circulating pump and the mixing valve, your bath sink is pulling a mix of hot and cold, which would really be more of a warm water than hot.

Actually, I thought that they locked up the Plummers after Watergate. Good luck.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 8:37 am

Thanks, Shorty. That's worth trying though might be a tad difficult to stop and open the washer to check the water temp since it is a front-loader. But it is so stingy of water use that there really wouldn't be enough (esp in a small load) to pour out the front when I open it, so it might work...

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 16 Jul 2013 8:59 am

Well, let me put my "qualifications" this way: My son is much more of a plumber than I am a steel player.

I think shorty and others are on to it. The mixing valve has to be providing a flow path between hot and cold lines. You can test this by disconnecting one hose... say the cold hose. Then slightly open the other (hot) supply valve and see if there is water escaping the open port of the mixing valve. If not, you should reverse the procedure to see if there is flow the other way, but it appears that hot is bleeding into cold water line.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 16 Jul 2013 9:44 am

I have done appliance repair for 19 years and have never heard of such an ordeal. Even if the water valves were hooked up wrong it should never affect the fauctes in the house. I am interested to see how this turns out.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 16 Jul 2013 10:50 am

Jim - Maybe this will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKFhOw-PXw

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Jul 2013 2:03 pm

Bad mixing valve on the washer.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 2:09 pm

I see a lot of you suspect the mixing valve, which makes some sense to me until I recall that the washer is not running. So why would just turning on the taps connected to the washer - without the washer running - lead to anything concerning the mixing valve? There is no water flowing through the machine when it's off, is there?

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 16 Jul 2013 3:29 pm

Serious this time Jim.
Low water pressure. When the cold water goes to the water heater, the hot water has higher pressure, because it's hot. The mixing valve on the washer might be bad, but with low cold water pressure, the mixing valve can't work properly. So, low water pressure prevents the mixing valve from working properly.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 3:45 pm

That makes some sense, Bud. but why would the mixing valve need to "work properly" when the dang thing is OFF? Ain't it just sittin' there??

Here's one more piece to the puzzle to contemplate:

The water runs hot for about one minute, then returns to cold. (To me, that seems like it's using up a finite amount of hot water then returning to the regular cold stream.)

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 16 Jul 2013 3:57 pm

It's not getting enough cold water to mix with the hot because the water pressure is low to the house. Plus the mix valve might be defective.
Find your main water valve where it comes in from the street and check that the MAIN water valve is all the way open.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 3:59 pm

Yeah, but I still have two questions:

a) why only this sink?

b) why when the washing machine is OFF? Isn't the mixvalve dormant when the machine is off? Why should it matter if it's faulty unless the machine is ON and water is flowing through it?

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 16 Jul 2013 4:10 pm

Jim, this topic needs to be moved to the "Community Assistance" section, oh wait....

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Jul 2013 4:11 pm

Larry Baker · Post by **Larry Baker** » 16 Jul 2013 4:30 pm

The mixing valve that most are referring to is actually a solenoid valve with built in checks inside. My opinion would be that the solenoid valve is bad, which is allowing the hot and cold to mix together even when not in use. Just my opinion. Will be interesting to find out what ends up solving your problem. Larry

Tom Lulias · Post by **Tom Lulias** » 16 Jul 2013 4:39 pm

Hey Jim,
Just swap the handles on the sink.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 17 Jul 2013 7:11 am

Give this guy a call:

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 17 Jul 2013 7:55 am

Jim
is the up-stairs BR just above the laundry room -- ? ---

if the mixing valve is bypassing, it may be convection of the hot water to the cold tap up-stairs .

My fender steel will run hotter if its up-stairs and the Emmons is down stairs

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 17 Jul 2013 7:56 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:Give this guy a call:

That job is not all it's cracked up to be.

Bob Cox · Post by **Bob Cox** » 17 Jul 2013 8:03 am

Jim, I was a union plumber for 30 years. Here's is what you need to do. Buy a 1/2" check valve and put it on the cold side before the cold valve that you hook your washer to. . That washer is not preventing back flow and is overpressuring your cold supply water system creating hot into the cold. This will solve the problem. Turn house water off when you remove the cold valve from the wall by the washer. then install new check valve with "arrow" flow toward washer then put valve back on, hook hose back up. that should solve the problem. they cost about 6.50

Curtis Alford · Post by **Curtis Alford** » 17 Jul 2013 8:45 am

Check first to see that the piping to the washer box is not crossed. Should be hot on the left cold on the right.