Chord Substitution

Rick Myrland · From: New Orleans

Question 1: If I substitute a chord, say a Db7 for a G7, do the other string players have to also substitute, or can I go it alone and still sound okay? Looking for some guidance on this before I run off and try it.

Question 2: Of a typical chord progression, are there common chords that you regularly substitute?
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I use the b5 chord substitute a lot for both chords and riffs. Usually it fits well with the rest of the band. This is often called a Tri-Tone substitution and you hear it a lot at steel shows in steel turnarounds and endings. I did a quick tutorial on it at the link below and you can here different b5 lead parts being played against the same rhythm track!

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/E9th%20Tri-Tone%20Improv/E9th%20Tri-Tone%20Improv.html

Greg

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Dd7? Dunno what you mean.

If everybody hits the same substitute chord, then that ends substitution and becomes reharmonization (not a bad thing, but not the same thing).
The key (slight pun) lies in substitutes that don't clash badly. If you're on 1 and you'll go to IV, v (5min) works. Or even if you won't. Mike Auldridge would ride quite a while on Gm in his solo on "Rider," and the Scene's arrangement never left C.
You just have to have a feel for what doesn't clash. The rules more say "don't do X" than "substitute X for Y".

EDIT: Cool stuff as usual, Mr. Cutshaw.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Another common one is a 5m sub for a 17

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

A "seventeen" chord? Laughing

Sorry Jim, had to say it.

The 5minor for a 1seven, I use it a lot.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

The right choice for a substitute chord can be the most beautiful thing. Very Happy

Hey Greg, how are you recording your samples? They really sound nice and clear. Thanks for all of your contributions. If a new player did nothing but visit your website he/she would be busy for a very long time getting top notch info.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord,

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Fred,

Most of my later stuff is MSA Legend D-10 > short George L's cord > Goodrich pot pedal > short George L's cord > HOF Reverb > 12' George L's cord (a bit long to roll off some highs) > Fender Steel King > Shure SM-57 > Studio Projects Hybrid pre-amp > Zoom R24 > Reaper as wav. file > rendered as 320kbps MP3.

Greg (a lot like Sheldon Cooper, I MUST sign this but not three times)

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Lane - Greg characterized it correctly as a tri-tone substitution. Quite common as noted elsewhere.

Jim - The 5minor chord is not really a substitution for a 1seven. It is only the insertion of another chord which leads to the desired chord. To wit: - CMAJ to C7 to FMAJ can be reharmonized as CMAJ, Gm7, C7 and then to the F chord. The Gm7 leads one into the C7. To call the Gm7 a substitution implies that one is now going from a IIm7 (the Gm7) straight to the "target" chord of FMAJ or a new I chord.

Nit picky? Yeh - but these things always are. The theory nerds eat us up on crap like this.

Richard

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I look at the example of using the 5 minor as using the top 3 notes of a 1 nine chord.

E9 chord = E G# B D F#
Bm chord = B D F#

So, I actually see the movement of going from the E at the 12th fret, sliding down 2 frets and hitting the A pedal more as a 1 to 1nine chord than a 1 to 5m (Bm). Like Richard (nice name by the way) said, it's more of a movement from one chord to another, most commonly (at least in most of what I use it for, but not limited to) from a 1 to a 4 chord.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

Richard- I'm not sure I understand that in the key of C the Gm7 is a IIm7?

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Read up on "Nashville Numbering System"...
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it

I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus!

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I teach that Scott. Gm7 is V7 in C unless Richard has a different explanation that I'm missing - which, IMHO, is likely Smile

.

Sid Hudson · From: Virginia, USA

I usually try to stay out of these “theory” discussions because there are as many opinions as stars in the sky. So against my better judgment here is my little tid bit.

If you are talking about soloing over substitute chords you can get away with soloing over just about anything as long as you “get home” in time. Taste does play a major factor in this statement.

It is difficult to play incorrect notes theoretically speaking. For every argument against, there is one to justify. (this is the line that will bring the heat)

When soloing, musical note choices take on a “dissonant” sound when presented poorly.

If you try to really stretch out (when soloing) and it sounds bad to you, it’s more than likely presentation and poor resolve instead of note selection.

Many schooled musicians would take exception to these statements. But I have found for every reason they give that some things are musically incorrect there is a theoretical reason why it is correct.

Bottom line, It comes down to:

Taste
Presentation of idea
Ability to resolve in time

Did I mention taste?

Just have fun and loosen up!

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

One sure fire rule... if it sounds good, do it again, if it don't, then by all means NEVER do it again! Rolling Eyes

_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it

I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Correction, Scott. Like Sid said, if you get back in time, it can be made to work.
If it sounds bad, frame it differently next time.
Even a b9 will usually sound pretty funky, but our Armenian steel players can probably provide some cool uses.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Good question and good answers. Here's my take on it.

A substitute can simply be a way of playing an extension to a chord (see Richard Sinkler's comment on E9/Bm). That gives you a way of playing complex chords using simple stuff you already know. E.g. as noted, iim (2m) contains the notes that are the 5th, 7th and 9th of a V9 chord, so it can be a "substitute". So if you are in C and play Dm instead of G and the rest of the band is playing a G chord, whether it works depends on whether you can get away with a G9 in that context. Usually in a country/swing context you can. Another one over a dominant would be iiim (3m) which contains the 6th or 13th, root and 3rd of the V chord. In C, that's Em while the rest of the band is playing G. The famous 'tritone substitute' of bII7 (b27) for V7 contains b5, 3rd, b9 and 7th of the V chord (eg in C, Db is flat 5th of G, F is 7th, Ab is b9th and Cb is, enharmonically B or the 3rd).

Similarly: vi m (6m) is 6th / 13th, root and 3rd of a I chord, so Am can be a C add 6. Another example on tonic: iii m (3m) is 3rd, 5th, maj 7 of a 1 maj 7 so Em can be a Cmaj7. You can play that when the rest of the band is just playing C as long as a C6 or a Cmaj 7 fits. (C6 will work in a swing-y context. If the tune is on the tonic C, the C maj 7 would be ill-advised since it will probably clash & I maj 7 just is the wrong sound in a lot of country music.)

A substitute can also be a way of organizing voicings or lines. For example, if you play Em - Dm over a G7, it gives a cool little progression (especially if you throw in a passing Eb minor which might otherwise sound horrible over a G). Do that (without the passing chord) off the tonic in a blues, i.e, in C, Am - Gm over a C7, Dm - Eb over the F7 and Em - Dm over the G, and they call it Stormy monday.

Another good example of a substitute to organize voicings and lines is IVb5 msj7 for V7. That would be Fb5 maj 7 for G7 in key of C. Fb5 maj 7 is F,A Cb (aka B) E, or 7th, 9th, 3rd and 13th/6th of a G13. You get that on steel by dropping 2 frets from open and hitting the X lever (drop 5 &10 1/2 tone) or dropping 2 frets from pedals down and hitting the lever that lowers your E strings a 1/2 tone. What is cool about thinking Fb5maj7 instead of G13 is that it orients you toward the root of the substitute chord, F, which makes for more interesting lines than if you are landing on the root of the 'real' chord, G.

A substitute or substitutes can be used to give an organized progression that may have notes that clash all over the place with the original progression. But the organization makes it sound good (depending on context). For example, in some contexts you can get away fills based on descending parallel maj chords whose roots are a minor pentatonic over a dominant leading back to the tonic (G F Eb C in C instead of G7 - C). The Eb gives you a tonic minor pentatonic sound over a dominant that is pretty common in bluegrass (as well as blues and rock). The clashes give the fill a nice bite as long as you keep it moving and land properly on the C.

Finally a substitute can be used to reharmonize a song, in which case everybody should be doing the same thing or it will either sound like a bunch of extended chords (which might or might not work) or a mess.

Context, listening, taste (including, sometimes, aggressively bad taste) are everything. There's a passing b5 in one of Willie Nelson's fills in "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain" which is just as sweet as can be. On the other hand, I remember some 30 years ago throwing in a b5 at a rehearsal of the country band I was then playing guitar in, and the otherwise very nice singer gave me what can best be described as major stink-eye. It didn't happen again.

John Peay · From: Cumming, Georgia USA

Daniel Policarpo · From: Kansas City

awesome John,that pulled it into the boat for me! I just happen to be working on that tab for the last couple months. Laughing

That tutorial is excellent, Greg C. My world just got a bit bigger, and scarier. This is some work that will really be worth it.

Richard Damron · From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)

Jim -

Didn't explain it quite right.

Regardless of whether you precede the FMAJ chord with a C7 or a Gm7, the FMAJ becomes the "target" chord - one to which you move to from a preceding chord. If one uses the C7th - which naturally resolves to the FMAJ - then the progression is the ubiquitous V7 to I change. In using the Gm7, this is analogous to a IIm7 to I change. It's a stark transition - one not having the leading tones which drag you into the target chord.

No one says that it cannot be used. The C7th - or a more viable substitution for it - is a much more melodious route to one's ear.

In looking at some of the chord progressions written over the years, it appears that a case can be made for just about any sequence imaginable. The proof can be said to be in the puddin' - if it sounds good to you, then play it.

Richard

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

ok Richard- thanks for the explanation.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic