MSA, Mullen, etc. nut roller dimensions?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 May 2003 8:19 am

We are still looking for dimensions for Mullen, LeGrande, Excell, Franklin, and others.

I am collecting the dimensions of stock nut rollers for as many PSG brands as possible. You don't need calipers - any good ruler such as a steel tape or carpenters fold-up rule will have markings down to 1/32" and will be adequate for the purpose (and you don't have to take the rollers off the guitar, just hold the rule next to them and eyeball the measurements in-place). Here is the information we need:

Make, model and year of guitar
Number of strings and basic tuning (e.g., 10-E9, 10-C6, 12-E9, 12-universal)
Roller width
Roller diameter
Axle diameter
Whether the rollers are guaged or not.

If the rollers are guaged and you would like to also include the widths of the string grooves and whether the grooves are V-shaped or U-shaped, that would be nice.

I will put them in a table and post them on the Forum so that people who want guaged rollers to prevent string rattle at the first fret can order off-the-shelf guaged rollers from the manufacturers who provide them and whose roller dimensions match.

Some popular brands of PSG do not (or did not) come with guaged rollers (e.g., Carter, Fessenden, Sho-Bud). This is not a big problem for 10-string E9, so many players and manufacturers haven't considered this a problem. Because of the much larger guages on the lowest strings of C6, without guaged rollers with wider and deeper grooves to let the largest wound strings sink lower in the roller, there can be annoying string rattle down around the first fret. But some players may not use the full bar at the first fret much on the C6 neck because the chords there are not too common (how often do you play in the key of C#?). Normal bar pressure will flatten things out above the first fret; however, the extra pressure on the biggest wound strings can increase the "bar whistling" string noise.

The biggest problem is with 12-strings, expecially universals. These have the same fat wound strings as C6, but use the first fret more because a lot of commonly used chords are there (C6, F, Bb, Am, Dm). Possibly for this reason universal players are the main ones who find unguaged rollers intolerable. And because this is a minority of players, some manufactureres have simply ignored this problem.

You can get a machinist to make custom sets of guaged rollers, but it is expensive (around $100), and is complicated enough that it requires some trial and error. It is much cheaper and more convenient to simply order a set of stock rollers from the PSG manufacturers who already have them on the shelf. But you have to find a brand that has rollers of the same width, diameter and axle size as your guitar.

I e-mailed 10 PSG manufacturers for their roller dimensions, and none of them gave me any dimensions. The few who responded simply assumed their rollers were unique and wouldn't fit any other brand. At least some of them are wrong about that. For example, the guaged rollers made for Zums will fit Fessendens. Probably there are other matches. The only way to know is to collect the dimensions from the various brands and put them in a table that will allow you to mix and match.

Therefore, I am asking players to measure their rollers and post them here or send them to me. I will put them in a table, and either post them here or give them to b0b to put in the permanent reference section of the Forum. We are especially interested in the dimensions of guaged sets for currently manufactured guitars that people are happy with (MSA Millenium, Mullen, Zum, Sierra).

Thanks guys, this will greatly help those of us with unguaged rollers.

Here are the measurements we already have:

Fessenden 2000 S12U
roller width 1/8"
roller diam. 5/16"
axle diam. 3/32"
string groove 3/64" (all)

Zum '87 (3 different guages?)
roller width 1/8"
roller diam. 5/16"
axle diam. 3/32"

Williams 400x
roller width 3/16"
roller diam. 3/8"
axle diam. 1/8"

Sierra (Crown or Session?)
roller width 11/64"
roller diam. 5/8"
axle diam. 3/16"

Cougar guaged rollers with V grooves
roller width 0.205" (13/64"?)
roller diam. 0.375" (3/8")
axle diam. 0.125 " (1/8")

Emmons '80s P/P 12-string ext. E9
roller width 1/8"
roler diam. 5/16"
axle diam. 3/32"
string groove 1/32" (1-10), 1/16" (11-12), U-shaped

Sho-Bud professional 10-E9
roller width 3/32"
roller diam. 3/8"
axle diam. 3/32"
string groove 1/16" (all)

Kline '78 s-12, guaged (7 sizes), V groove
roller width 3/16"
roller diam. 3/8"
axle diam. 3/32"

Thanks to those who posted these measurements. Keep them coming.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 12 May 2003 at 09:24 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 May 2003 at 06:12 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 12 May 2003 8:38 am

My momma told me never to give out my measurements because there would be boys who would use them against me. Are you one of those boys, David?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 May 2003 9:55 am

Jim, you're thinking about the wrong kind of roller, man. I'm not interested in the one that rolls over your belt buckle. I want the measurements of the rollers on that Zum C6 neck you're always tearing up. And you probably have a couple other interesting guitars hanging around.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 May 2003 10:03 am

It would be nice if someone with a recent LeGrand would give us the measurements on those rollers, especially the groove widths. You can order sets of 10 "guaged rollers" right off their web site for $30. Their axle is one of the smaller ones, but it would be a minor job to drill the axle hole out a little.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 12 May 2003 10:56 am

Oh, okay, David. As long as you're not trying to take advantage of me, here they are as best as I can measure them in situ:

Zum D-10 (don't know the year but at least 5 years old)

Roller width= 1/8"
Roller diam= 5/16"
Axle diam= 3/32"
Not gauged

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 May 2003 4:09 am

^Bump^ Thanks, Jim. We are still looking for roller measurements for the new MSAs, Mullen, and LeGrands. Thanks in advance.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 May 2003 at 06:46 AM.][This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 May 2003 at 06:47 AM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 13 May 2003 2:09 pm

Remington U12, about 1992/93, built by Gary Rittenbury (spelling?).
Roller width= 1/8"
Roller diam= 5/16"
Axle diam= 3/32"
Gauged with V-shape.
I re-grooved 11 and 12 with a small round file to create a deeper U-groove.

------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 May 2003 3:34 pm

Thanks, Peter. Were your rollers gauged to start with, and you had to widen some grooves anyway, or were none of them guaged?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 May 2003 7:28 am

^Bump^

Kyle Bennett · Post by **Kyle Bennett** » 14 May 2003 7:51 am

MSA Millennium
Roller width 3/16
Roller dia. 3/8
Axle dia. 3/32
Gauged with V Groove

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 14 May 2003 8:38 am

David, the rollers were gauged to start with, but string 11/12 were not deep enough, so I just put a bolt through them and stuck them in a drill. I then gently held a small round file in the groove whilst the drill was spinning. I just eye-balled how much the string should should stick out and it worked perfectly. [This message was edited by Peter on 14 May 2003 at 09:41 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 May 2003 10:36 am

Thanks, Kyle. Looks like the Millenium rollers wont fit my Fessy. But maybe they will fit some other makes. Zum rollers look like they will fit the Fessy, so maybe I'll contact Zum.

Anybody out there want to give us the Mullen or LeGrand measurements? In a photo at the Mullen web site you can see that the Mullen rollers are unique, with a raised area around the hub, but they still may fit some other brands.

Fulawka rollers are carefully guaged, according to the web site. These dimensions would be of interest.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 May 2003 at 02:53 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 May 2003 6:36 am

^Bump^

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 May 2003 6:41 am

^Bump^ Still looking for Mullen, LeGrand, Excell and Sierra roller dimensions. Your help will be greatly appreciated.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 May 2003 5:13 am

^Bump^ Still looking for Mullen, LeGrand, Excell, Franklin, and others. Thanks anybody.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 May 2003 5:47 am

^Bump^

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 21 May 2003 7:12 pm

Hey David, just want to thank you for pursuing this useful information. I have a nice old GES S-12 that needs new rollers, and when I get around to doing it, these measurements will be very helpful. None of the listed rollers are an exact fit, but at least I know which ones come close. Thanks for your persistence and I hope you get some more responses.

I'd give you the dimensions of the GES's rollers, but they wouldn't be very useful to anybody. They are not gauged. In fact, they are just little brass string ball ends, doing roller duty on an axle that looks about 5/64" in diameter. The roller channels will allow a normal 1/8" roller (e.g. Emmons), but they would sit too high unless I find a machinist who will cut the axle channel deeper (and a bit wider).

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 22 May 2003 3:52 am

David- I don't recall you contacting me about the rollers I use on the Nashville LTD. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 May 2003 5:51 am

Ed, sorry for the oversight. I e-mailed what seemed like the biggest manufacturers, but when I had done 10 and started getting replies with no measurements I gave up. Of course, some of the less well known pedal steel makers are more attentive to these kinds of details than the big guys. For example Cougar provides guaged rollers, but Carter and Fessenden do not, and Sho-Bud didn't. So if you provide guaged rollers please let us know the measurements. Sorry I overlooked you, and thanks for speaking up.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 22 May 2003 7:06 am

David-Most builders including myself are reluctant to give out info that has taken years to acquire.I have given out info and the person takes the info and becomes a competitor. I deal with with thousands of customers annually. I am sometimes refered to as the"J.C. Whitney" of steel guitars.I try to solve their problem whether it is for a Multi-Kord Pedal or a Fretboard for a Wheeler.My speciality is Sho-Bud parts and repair and do-it yourself kits.If you only knew the odd ball things people need or want. ED

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 May 2003 11:08 am

Okay, Ed, I get your point about trade secrets. But I wouldn't have thought nut roller dimensions would be something to keep secret. After all, the reason I want the dimensions is to see if I can buy their rollers to put on my guitar. I suppose they had rather I dumped my current guitar and bought one of theirs, but it seems silly to dump an otherwise perfectly good guitar and spend $3,000-$6,000 on a new one just to get a $30 set of rollers. Believe me, when I do go to buy a new guitar, I'll remember who was helpful with this problem.

Actually it was only my first step to check out the manufacturers, to see what is just sitting there on the shelf already made. Because that is obviously the cheapest and quickest solution. The next step will be to find out which parts and repair shops can supply guaged rollers, either from off their parts shelves, or as custom made sets. The latter is clearly the most expensive.

By the way, I've bought Sho-Bud parts from you in the past and have been very happy with the service and prices. So since I have your eyes for the moment, can you supply guaged rollers? If not, how would you suggest we go about obtaining them?

Thanks for your help.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 22 May 2003 11:57 am

I should have the rollers in stock. Send me a diminsion. Ed

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 22 May 2003 12:06 pm

So, let me see if I got this right... To summarize the recent exchange:

David: Anybody got some roller dimensions they can share with me?

Ed: Hey David! How come you didn't ask me??

David: I'm terribly sorry for the oversight, Ed. I didn't mean to slight you. Yes, by all means I'm interested in your roller guages too. Please tell me what the dimensions are. Thank you in advance.

Ed: I'm not telling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did I get that right?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 May 2003 12:58 pm

Okay, I'm getting some messages off-line that some people have had bad business dealings with Ed Naylor in the past. My dealing with him was fine, but that may not always be the case. So I can only say "buyer beware."

If there are other pedal steel parts and repair people out there who could supply guaged rollers, now is the time to let us know.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 22 May 2003 4:24 pm

I have been in this business for over 35 years and I know I don't please everyone.At the present time I have several hundred inquiries and orders to process. I work 14 hrs a day 7 days a week trying to help people. Rest assured the things I have to offer you won't find at Wal-Mart.Ironically many have a 30 year old guitar and want the parts yesterday. I have to deal with some 200 suppliers ,and other sources to to try to fulfill orders. I have to buy in huge quantities and sometimes wait for months to get items. Oh well- it's 8:30. -time to go home. Ed