Volume Swell Or White Elephant?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 6 May 2003 2:41 am

When is a volume swell useful? Do you find the crescendo to be a white elephant, while playing in groups of musicians, who prefer the louder is better approach? I've recently decided to boot the volume pedal in like situations, and effectually utilize my R K V knee lever, while keeping the volume constant. The little short term battles to be heard, will soon merge into a reconcilable adjustment by all members of the band. The volume swells are no longer as audible, as they once were, before the addition of electronic bass guitars, and huge drum sets, "miked" into the soundboard,to become "standardized" practices. And yes, make room for the keyboardist, the three part harmony, and the whole 9 yards of dinning exultation.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 06 May 2003 at 08:22 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 07 May 2003 at 03:24 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 6 May 2003 8:26 am

I was just using it yesterday for a nice atmospheric distortion sound with echo and reverb. Fade up more and it gets more grit. Amp sound is '64 twin into '52 cabinet.

The pedal is my age, so it also has the low level tone change, but I am using that for effect.
I play more C6, but on the E9 it's interesting.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 6 May 2003 1:33 pm

I THINK VOLUME IS SWELL!
TONE IS NICE TOO!
BUT I REALLY LIKE THAT SWELL VOLUME!
THIS IS GOOD THREAD!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 May 2003 1:28 am

Stephen G.,

Taking up a stand by stating in a polite way to fellow bandmembers, this far, and no further, is akin to allowing the tomcat to save his tail, in a room full of rockers, by showing him the door. The pedal steel in the hands of a skilled artist, is an instrument that will evoke blissful moments, to gentle warm hearts, as it cries out, and becomes an endearment, to those who can relate to its musical messages.
The steel guitarist can be seen pressing the volume pedal during performances, while trying to maintain volume swells, which in turn, under "normal" conditions, enhances the melodies.

This thread is not complicated, in that it's not about a new idea, or some remote private experience. It's about what should be a matter of concern, to all whom I'm quite sure, have had their own experiences with loud volume, and they've endured the gig in silence, not saying a word, as they pack up to leave.

Bill H.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 7 May 2003 2:35 am

If you can't tell your band mates it's too loud, then you need another band,
with people with profesional attitudes.

Over all volume is part of the sound,
if one intrument is washed out, then the WHOLE band suffers out front.

If the other guys don't get this or give you a pantload for saying turn down... that's their problem and shouldn't remain yours.

Oh my, you want me quieter, you must not want me to be heard... purest BS.

I give a person in the audience I trust has good ears the authority to hand signal ANYONE on stage about their relative level. And I tell the band to take it seriously. Our guitarists wife actually is a trained pro video sound mixer and when she's there she tweeks the mix, but also can tell anyone to turn down... and they do.

If they didn't I would shortly blow off the gig. That simple.

I have mixed and played live, and done studio work for 40 years... each night of too much noise takes it out of my ears,
and I won't tolerate that.
Besides the musical washout that also ensues from volume egoists.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 May 2003 10:10 am

David D.,

Your reply is like breathing fresh air from an open valley. I mean it has reached the point where trying to converse with slightly raised voices, is an absolute impossibility. When the majority of the country/rock bands cut loose with present day volumes, it's time to try to protect what's left of the ability to hear. Tinnitus is just around the corner, and doctors will quickly tell you that your stuck with it, using paraphrastic language to suit the patients tolerance to bad news. David, as you know, by voicing opinions on abuses, such as not condoning those behavioral traits, which tend to interchangeably fester up whenever
whomever advocates the attempt to blow out the walls, can be a long uphill battle. The title of this thread merely suggests that we do in fact need changes, if the steel player is contemplating a pristine performance.

Bill H.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 7 May 2003 10:52 am

Hi Bill,

I couldn't help but chime in on the volume thing as I have quite a few years on the bandstand with consequent loss of acuity.

At last summer's Mass Steel Bash, I was so impressed with Bobbe Seymour's appropriate volume level on his set. Great taste, and listeners could hear each instrument in the mix.

See you there again this year,

Chris

------------------
now living in the Ocean State ....

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 May 2003 1:44 pm

I use the volume pedal continuously and, I think, appropriately. Our guitarist has requested that I use it more obviously on the country ballads, creating the "swell" effect. I tried it, and he loves it, but I think it sound hokey.

You listen to Jimmy Day or Lloyd Green, and you never notice the volume pedal. They are using it correctly to enhance sustain and keep their volume at a continuous level. The "swell" effect is the mark of amateurs, in my opinion. I worked hard to eliminate it from my playing. It sort of irks me to be asked to do it.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 7 May 2003 2:17 pm

I've been using a volume pedal for thirty years as part of my standard guitar setup, but I don't do swells either unless it's for the obvious Dickie Betts parts that require it. Even a volume change of 20% to 25% can have the effect of blatting geese to the audience, that's why studios and sound boards use compression to even things out. I use the pedal to change between rhythm and lead volumes. I have heard a few steel players do it well, but I haven't heard that from most. I'd really like to get a "pot-in-a-box" that came out of the side jack of my Carter, so I wouldn't have to mess with the pedal at all.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 May 2003 2:28 pm

Bobby Lee,

My goodness Bobby! I can't believe what you have replied! You are one of my heroes of the day, and I'll stick by you through thick and thin when the chips are down. You must have given some thought to the fact that thousands of musicians will view the volume swell as a treasured necessity, in keeping with the choices of masters of the steel guitar. Further, it brings me to question of Jimmy Day's use of the volume swell. Possibly, the greatest master of steel guitar, for all time, Lloyd Green may someday speak out for people who are dedicated to his great musical expression. His wisdom is cherished by musicians in every part of the world. Bobby, thanks for stating your feelings with pure honesty.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 May 2003 at 02:32 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 May 2003 9:18 am

Bobby, I would respectfully disagree.
Yes, using the pedal, countering natural string decay, to make an even volume, is a very appropriate technique.
And I like how you use your tools on your Quasar CD.

Excessive use of swell, after, swell after swell, sure that's amaturish.

But to use it tastefully as a way to create atmosphere and texture... I just don't think that's bad or unprofessional.

If a technique furthers the songs production, live or studio, I won't rule ANYTHING out.
It works or it doesn't, and I care not whether someone else does or doesn't use it.
The Beatles punched holes in the speaker cones to get a tone they liked in a few cuts. (not recomended normally

)

The moment you close the door on something you can do, you lock yourself into a box.
Swell was written by Beethoven, Bartok and other classical composers and Jimmy Smith makes swell a thing of beauty on the B3.
PSG has it and it should be used... tastefully. For me it's one of the elements that makes a PSG sound beautiful.

Bill H.
Thanks for the kind words. I have played power trio Speed Metal, but never even entered the room without ear plugs.... Still we had a lot of rhythm section dynamics.
If a drummer can't play with technique and not just power I am not interested. The above drummer and I also played country, western swing and all versions of jazz over the years.

I have been mixing music since I was about 7-8 years old and The Whole Deal is to get all elements to be heard in a good balance with dynamics... Live or studio it's the same thing.

A good band must understand this and not asume the sound guy can compensate for off the charts or off balance stage levels.

Even more important is that a good band gets a "sonic groove" going not just a rhythmic groove.
One guy oblivious to that "in the room aural effect", makes it impossible to make the band "sing as an instrument".
And all the more likely to never hit that really hot performance, ensemble.

You know how some nights are "just magic" and others never quite get in gear.
How many of those off nights are when one guy isn't listening to the whole,
and only his thing all night?
If all instruments balance to the weakest one then it has a chance to sing.

This correlates to hearing loss also, because distortion is what does the most damage, not just high level. A lower level with distortion causes the same damage as a higher clean level. ( yes, too loud and clean is still too loud)
You can have a 900 watt PA amp into 100 watt speakers, no damage. But a 100w amp into 300w speakers, pushing the amp into distortion blows tweeters real fast.

This is what happens to some extent when a band is unbalanced it causes distortion and disonances in the room, effecting everybody's ears. Sometimes the sound guy can overpower the stage imbalance... but it's still off on stage and so you can't play as well.
IMHO your milage may differ.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 May 2003 at 08:05 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 May 2003 2:27 pm

I just don't like the way it sounds. Since I'm not a professional musician, I am free to play the way I want to play. If someone thinks that volume swells are an appropriate sound for their own music, that's fine with me. I just don't get off on it, myself.

Some people don't like distortion. They say it's not musical. I don't like volume pedal swells. The first thing a guitar player does, when trying to imitate a pedal steel, is volume swells. It's that much of a cliche - it's like turning on a "fuzz box" and calling it rock. Fuzz boxes aren't the essense of rock and roll guitar, and volume swells aren't the essence of pedal steel.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 8 May 2003 2:47 pm

Chris B.,

I'm pleased knowing that you're in a neighboring state. I know that your travels made the likelihood of keeping in touch, a little more difficult. You alluded to bandstands, and this reminded me of the times that I tolerated a drummer with 25" cymbals crashing over my head. He would look at me like a cock-eyed rooster, wondering how I was able to maintain a rhythmic melody on my steel, while he smashed his sticks against the alloyed metal. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Today, I'm much more aware of the damages caused by such behavior.

Bill H.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 May 2003 1:16 am

Fuzz boxes aren't the essense of rock and roll guitar, and volume swells aren't the essence of pedal steel

Nope they ain't, just some tools to use. As each individual sees fit.

Bill. What do you have on RKV?[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 May 2003 at 02:18 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 May 2003 2:50 am

I've finally digested most of the direct hits I've taken, for attempting to use superfluous vocabulary, (flowery that is) while trying to be explicit. There is nothing more valuable than constructive criticism. Therefore, I do welcome the practice. The late Bob Steele, who for many years, was the key voice on Connecticut's WTIC Broadcasting Radio Station. He had a voice second to none, to fill the requirements of his position, which meant getting the news out to the people. During brief broadcasting interruptions, he would spring his "Word for the day" on his listeners. After reciting the word, he would stress its proper enunciation, as well as the true definition, and how to use the word in a sentence. The daily practice, made popular through Bob's broadcasting, would be very welcome today.

The English language, now referred to as "Flowery" if stressed, is a good example of two forces pulling in opposite directions. In other words, teachers in colleges insist upon correct spelling, and proper word usage, while the general public discourages the practice. I mean to say, how do you go about explaining this messy quandary?

Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 May 2003 at 01:05 PM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 May 2003 at 12:15 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 May 2003 at 07:30 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 May 2003 7:10 am

Bill a strong command of the engilsh language is a plus as far as I am concerned. I have a prediliction for a down homey style here.
But I have no issue with verbal punditry either. [ Aye, what he say, ducks? ]

PS again, what's on your RKV?

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 9 May 2003 7:33 am

Jerry Byrd uses a volume swell on a backward gliss in the Hawaiian tune, "Paradise Isle".
Rick[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 09 May 2003 at 08:34 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 9 May 2003 8:24 am

David D.,

Thanks for the inquiry about the recent installation of my RKV. David, it raises the 9th string of the 9th tuning a full tone. I'm searching for a change that will convert a major chord to a 7th with greater magnitude, and with maximum resonance. The lever is in place, and I have been experimenting with the change, by trying different combinations, using 3,4, and 5 string chord melody grabs. For those who haven't tried the change, one option for its use, that quickly evolves, is the short B.E. intro to "Indian Killed A Woodcock"
on The "Flying Fish" label. This is accomplished by picking in unison, strings 8,9, and 10. Bring the change in gradually as the strings are ringing, and release as each sustain duration wanes. That little kicker in "I.K.a W." just showed up, while searching for bigger game. Actually, I landed on something interesting in the chorus of "I Fall To Pieces", some time ago, and decided then to try making changes to enhance the move. I surmised that this 9th string raise would work well with the move by using it in parallel with the root 8th string. That is, the 9th would be ringing as I gliss down to the 7th.
It really helps to include the 9th string in melody lines with greater frequency The RKV will also feature a 1st string change, independent of the common 1/2 and full tone raises, that are located on my LKV raises, and combined with a 1/2 step raise of the 2nd string. The P.F. twin tones are easily accessible in that location.
I refer to the sounds created in the song "There Goes", and sung by A.J.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 May 2003 at 09:29 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 May 2003 at 03:16 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 May 2003 2:28 am

David Donald,

I'll be adding the L.K.F., and the R.K.F. that I used extensively, in the 80's and 90's. This will allow me to access the 6 on the floor pedal cluster, which includes the new short pedal creations, and 8 knee levers on a single 10.

Bill H.