What is your take on the subject???

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 30 Apr 2003 7:29 am

Have you ever seen a philharmonic concert
or a concert band that included a pedal steel guitar on a regular basis????
The pedal steel is one of the few instruments that have been excluded, WHY?

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 30 Apr 2003 7:56 am

I played in a musical "Blue Hawaii" a couple of years ago. With the full philharmonic orchestra. The rehearsals were fine, but the first performance was a bit tricky: I could not see the conductor because I had to look at the fretboard. Luckily a violin player noticed this and was conducting the tempo with his hand right in front of the steel.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Apr 2003 8:00 am

Ah, actually saxaphone, piano, vibraphone, organ, guitar, mandolin, banjo, electric bass, synthesizer, sitar and many other instruments are not regular members of symphony orchestras, and sax would be the only one of these included regularly in a concert band. Some of these (like the sax) weren't invented at the time the makeup of symphony orchestras was settled on. Others, like the piano, aren't included regularly because their ET tuning clashes with the JI that the fretless strings and horns play. Any of the above instruments might be brought on stage for a single number that features them.

Jim Cohen played pedal steel with a local symphony orchestra here in Philly not long ago. I missed it, but I think he has it recorded, so we may get a chance to hear the performance at some point. Nevertheless, I get your point, Richard. Jim's performance is so rare that it makes your point that this just doesn't happen much.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Apr 2003 8:03 am

Peter, what you needed was to have Bill Hanky design an angled mirror to attach to your steel so you could see the reflection of the conductor while looking at the fret board.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Apr 2003 9:12 am

Wrong!

Literally dozens of instruments are regularly excluded from symphonic (or "concert") music.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 30 Apr 2003 9:25 am

<SMALL>The pedal steel is one of the few instruments that have been excluded, WHY?</SMALL>

I think it's because of the way it sounds.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 30 Apr 2003 9:27 am

But then, it could be the way it looks.
Or maybe it's because of the people who play it.

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 30 Apr 2003 10:26 am

Maybe it´s just because it´s amplified. They are very sceptical towards everything that´s not a strictly acoustic instrument. Electric guitars don´t usually get to play with symphony orchestras either.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 30 Apr 2003 2:47 pm

Well Hollywood has done it, but a purely classical symphony would want a purely classical piece done on PSG "perfectly" before they would even consider it.
But if some one does it and takes it to the musicial director of a smaller orchestra he MIGHT put it in the schedual eventually as a novelty.
But the player would have to totally blow him away with the part.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 30 Apr 2003 4:03 pm

Earnest, yer killin' me.

Yes, I played a one-nighter with the Philadelphia Classical Symphony last year. (Actually it was a "one-songer" but let's not quibble; I was stuck there all night anyway, ok?) But this was not classical music. It was more of a "pops concert" thing, with my swing band, Beats Walkin'. The orchestra's arranger took our CD recording of "Miles and Miles of Texas" and arranged parts for 35-piece orchestra, mostly leaning on the horn section for big-band punches, etc. He wrote the parts around the way we already play it, so we didn't have to do anything different from what we normally do with the tune (actually, we had to remember how we "normally" do it, since we often change things on the spot). Then, we had one rehearsal with the orchestra the day before the show, and that was it! Came off pretty good. I'd like to do more of that.

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 30 Apr 2003 5:10 pm

maybe it's the tux....doesn't go with my straw hat......but then again.....

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 1 May 2003 1:54 pm

Although I've not done a 'regular' ongoing gig with any symphony, I have done upwards of 10 to 20 dates a year with various ones (not as the main act, just playing with a singing artist. Well, there was this one date where I solo'd with the Cincinatti Pops on my own, but...that's another story). I've met several conductors who are fancinated with it and the pops conductor in Austin, Texas is a BIG fan of pedal steel. He actually goes out and listens to various players. It may only be a matter of time before a pops situation will use one somewhat regularly (not full-time I don't think). No one really knows how to write for them...I don't know how to write for them (not talking about arranging).

Mike

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 1 May 2003 5:20 pm

Hiring an orchestra to play with a pop music group happens all the time. But I think Richard was asking about whether any composer has written for the steel guitar in the world of serious music.
The only one I can think of is Shostakovch, who included a steel guitar in the orchestra for his jazz suite. This was before amps and pedals, however. So we really need more composers today who will do it.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 May 2003 7:18 pm

Ernest, I have a CD of you playing a piece called "Steel Chords" by Sasha Matson (?), with a small orchestra. It's the only "classical" composition I know of that was written to feature the pedal steel.
It's not great music, but you performed very well, and it may be a "first" in the history of our nstrument.

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Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 1 May 2003 7:56 pm

I forgot about that, b0b. Also, many film composers have used steel guitar in an orchestral setting. But they are all afraid of the pedals.
In fairness, how can you expect a composer to write for pedals when every player has diffeent pedals? The answer can only be that the player and the composer be the same person.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 2 May 2003 2:43 am

A few years ago I played with The Rotterdam Philharmonic 'Án Die Musiek' from Schubert. It was an instrumental part of a show with the Stevens Sisters from Nashville. Was a live broadcast from the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, prime time national TV newyearsday. Was very well, when I had to do it again now and realize the big impact from that show, I would shit my pants

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Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 2 May 2003 6:51 am

Too many strings on the steel...the string section is intimidated by anyone playing an instrument over four strings and the harp player feels you are encroaching on their territory...better off trying to sell them on your ukulele!!!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 May 2003 8:16 am

Earnest is right, unless they play pedal steel no composer is going to be able to write the pedal steel part out in tab. Composers typically compose everything on a piano. They would just have to write out the steel part as piano music. The steeler would have to read that directly or transpose it into a tab arrangement. Or, more practically, the composer would have to record the steel part on a piano, and the steeler could listen to the recording and work out and memorize his interpretation of how to get that. Seems like a lot of top pros could handle that. But it wouldn't be easy. We are use to songs with repeating verses. So you learn the chord progression and melody and improvise from there on the repeats. But classical music can go on and on for half an hour or more with few or no repeats. Memorizing all that note for note would be a real problem.

That's been my problem when I've piddled around with classical music. Without being able to read the music directly (I can on piano and sax, but not on guitar or steel) it is really difficult to memorize long passages note for note. Even a fairly short thing with some repeats like "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" is daunting. I can work it all out, but when I come back to it after a few days, I can't remember all of it note for note. I even have trouble with doing stuff note for note the same each time with simple country songs. I cover lack of knowledge by improvising. But I know that good pros have tons of intros, fills and melodies memorized note for note, so some of them could work out and memorize long classical pieces.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 2 May 2003 11:52 am

I played classical bass in NYC with up to 70 musicians, and once did Caramina Burana with 450 voices. I also always recorded the concerts.
Yet I am TOTALLY jealous of Johan right now!
You played the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam....!!!

This is hands down for me the BEST sounding room in the world.

If I wanted to hear the basses in a recording for any music I was playing it was ALWAYS clearest in the Concertgebouw recordings. Of course the mids and highs were perfect too.

I saw heard a concert there 2 years ago when I was at a AES convention. It wasn't full so I could wander around and pick different seats... just a great room everywhere!

And Johan got to play steel there too.
Some one was smiling down on you that day!!!