tubes vs. solid state

Leonard Imbery · Post by **Leonard Imbery** » 12 May 2013 7:51 am

I know....the same old can of worms...
but...
I've recently returned to pedal steel and am enthralled by all the new tech changes from 30 yrs. ago...
I remember Jeff Newman telling us in '82 how you need a transistor amp for steel since steels have so much natural harmonic distortions happening with the tuning etc. and you didn't need more tube distortion....
...Now I see everyone swearing by their tube amps! Have the tube amps gotten much more refined?...
i've got a Traynor Keyboard amp that has a switchable tube pre-amp on one channel...I'm going to give it a go and see if that makes a good steel amp....opinions?

Bill L. Wilson · Post by **Bill L. Wilson** » 12 May 2013 8:48 am

I play through a Session 400 Limited, a Fender Pro Reverb, and a MV Twin Reverb. The 40watt Pro is the sweetest sounding of all three, but I love them all. I recently built two cabinets to split the 90lb Twin, and lighten it up. I have the original 12" JBL'S mounted in a 2-12 closed back cab, and I love the tone, the ivory tolex, oxblood grill cloth,and the old Fender vintage look from the 60's. When I feel like getting out the table saw, I'm going to split up the Session 400, and that 15"BW. that weighs a ton. I played the Session, Fri. night, and the Twin Sat. and I get great tone out of either one. At 66, I'm still stout enough to haul these babies around, Praise God for that!!!!

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 May 2013 9:26 am

What I tell everyone. "If you must have tubes" then forget about solid state.

On the other hand many of us use Peavey steel guitar amps which have been solid state ONLY since the first Session 400 back in the 70's. Or more recently many are using the GK MB200 amp which is solid state.

Ollie Strong, one of the more well known Canadian steeler's, has used solid state for a long time. When I first met him, here in Florida, he was using an Evans SE-200 amp which is solid state. He is now using a Nashville 112, solid state. I know he was looking at the GK MB200 but I don't know if he ever got one. Ollie worked with Tommy Hunter for a long time and is the steeler demonstrating the Fulawka steel on the TV show "how its made".

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 May 2013 10:19 am

...Now I see everyone swearing by their tube amps! Have the tube amps gotten much more refined?...

No, not really. It's more of a "the grass is always greener" kinda thing. The vast majority of steel players still use solid-state amps.

I remember Jeff Newman telling us in '82 how you need a transistor amp for steel since steels have so much natural harmonic distortions happening with the tuning etc. and you didn't need more tube distortion....

I liked Jeff, he was was good teacher and player. But, he did say goofy things once in awhile, and that was one of 'em. Played cleanly, solid-state and tube amps are nearly indistinguishable, so you needn't agonize that playing either one will make you sound much better or worse.

Far too many players blame their gear when they don't get a good sound.

"I chopped down that tree, and it fell on the house! Must have been something wrong with the saw?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 12 May 2013 10:20 am

My take: "tube warmth" sounds great, as long as you don't push the tubes hard. Since we throw around chords or those dissonant intervals we resolve with pedals and knees, and we want those dissonances to stay clean, once you get breakup, it goes downhill fast.
If the volume is really strange, or they put a mic in front of the amp, then I bring my tube amp. If it is going to be a loud situation, then I am going to bring the big Peavey. I have thought about having a line out put on my Fender, and run my LTD as a slave to the Twin.
This, from a guy who ran nothing but Peavey amps since 1982.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 12 May 2013 10:58 am

a tube preamp is not the same as a proper tube power amplifier, but its a step in the right direction.

tubes versus solid state is like comparing a pedal steel to a banjo. Apples and oranges. Salt and Pepper

the best thing is to have both and use them where applicable or in tandem with one another

Leonard Imbery · Post by **Leonard Imbery** » 12 May 2013 11:00 am

So what I'm getting here is that tubes have a sweeter sound as long as they're not overdriven but the transistor amps will blast it out there cleaner if one is in a high volume situation?

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 12 May 2013 11:05 am

it takes more transistor power to equate the power of tubes because of the harmonic content

tube amps appear to be louder - and the distortion is a good thing! Not screaming marshall stack distortion, but a little hair on the pedal steel can sound really good. Its the sound of classic country

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 12 May 2013 11:08 am

That's how I'm seeing it, Leonard.

Tim, I think I'm with you. But if a 65 (RI) Twin is getting too hairy for my tastes, what's the solution? A roadie and a Super Twin? Or a line out and a second Twin?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 12 May 2013 11:36 am

But if a 65 (RI) Twin is getting hairy, what's the solution? A roadie and a Super Twin? Or a line out and a second Twin?

A persuasive logical argument that will convince the rest of the band to turn down to a reasonable level.

Seriously, I agree with Donny, as usual. If you can't get a good clean pedal steel sound out of a clean pedal steel amp, the problem is not the amp - same with a clean tube amp. The biggest reason I like tube amps is that I'm often doing both guitar and pedal steel, and I do find that the bridge pickup on a Tele straight into, let's say, a Nashville 400 doesn't generally have enough 'give' for me. But I'd say the same thing about a Super Twin - at the volumes I typically play at, I just don't get any give from these super-clean amps. But on the other hand, give me a lower-power Peavey solid-state amp like a Bandit, or let me put a decent Deluxe Reverb patch from a modeler in front of one of these clean machines, and it's OK.

But another important point, which Donny and I were discussing at the Spring Grove, PA jam a few weeks ago - there are a lot of things different between tube amps and solid-state amps, not just the tubes vs. transistors. One big issue is the output transformer in tube amps, whereas most solid-state amps are direct-coupled. This can make a big difference. Tubes are also basically (high) voltage devices, transistors are basically current devices. Then there are significantly different approaches to the design of typical tube vs. solid-state amps. All these things matter.

But don't expect that just because something says "tubes" that it's gonna be some kind of magic. Just as there are great and crappy solid-state amps, there are great and crappy tube amps. At least to my tastes.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 12 May 2013 11:43 am

I can't imagine a gigging scenario where a Twin would not be loud enough

It might just be a difference in venues or style or something - but here in SF I usually gig with a 20W amp and its enough. 9/10 places have loud PA systems these days, and for the rare gigs where there isn't one a 85-100W tube amp usually does the job.

Remember that amplification operates in factors of 10 - so in order to be twice as loud as a Twin you'd need 850-1000W. The difference between a 100W amp and a 200W amp is barely noticeable. Just a few dB more headroom.

If your Twin is not loud enough I think there are other factors at play - and its likely the other musicians you are playing with. If the guitar player and drummer are strumming and playing cymbals all the time, you will get lost in the mix no matter what the wattage. If you are playing over a singer who is booming out of a PA then you will get lost. Just something else to think about

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 12 May 2013 11:44 am

My L5 and S1 disk appreciate the new lighter weight SS amps. But since I don't play out any longer, my backline on a triple switcher is 65 Fender Twin, Evans 150
with a 12" speaker in the middles and Fox Vintage amp. The switching system allows you to use any 1-2 or all 3 amps at once if desired. In the bigger scheme of things, whatever makes you happy with gear is the way to go. Chasing that golden note has been a love/hate relationship with me but have learned a lot along the way.

Lenny

Joseph Meditz · Post by **Joseph Meditz** » 12 May 2013 3:19 pm

So Len, how would your rate your three amps in order of satisfaction?

I have a home made 50W tube amp which is copy of a '72 Orange MK II, a Deluxe Reverb RI, and a Peavey N112.

In terms of sonic and tactile satisfaction I rate them:
1) Home made
2) DRI
3) N112.

It is true that one can get an acceptable sound out of an N112 that may in certain ways be arguably better than the tube sound. Nevertheless, for me, even with its flaws, the sound of the tube amp is far more satisfying. It even feels better. Tube amps have a "touch" that is absent in the transistor amps I've tried. That's why, even though they are heavy, hot, and usually run on inferior modern tubes, tube amps are still around.

Joe

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 12 May 2013 3:47 pm

Well, it's a hard question to answer because there are so many vairiables but I'll give some food for thought:

1. Us older guys use to play with the amp un-miced so we had to have a bit more juice to cover the entire room from the stage.

2. When you mic an amp that feeds through the monitors and PA you can get away with the amp as your monitor and play at a lower volume.

3. If you like Tube amps and nothing else will do you need 100 watts or near that
if you play un-miced (That's just my opinion) depends on what type of music and what volume you play at) Not dissing any other opinions or comments.

4. Another curve to this mess is what type of guitar you play? If you play E9 single neck where your 10th string is .038 it's a different story than playing a D-10 or U-12 where the last string is .068 or .070. See where I'm going here?

My backline that handles my U-12 at studio or jam volume on the tripler switcher to a restored 65 Twin (brite switch up, Thank you Ricky) with Webber Neo mag speakers just fine with a bit of hair with VP all the way down, the Evans in the middle is crystal clean with
a nice Jazzy vibe and last, the Fox Vintage amp with 15" neo speaker is clean but I use the normal channel and it handles anything.

As usual, YMMV.....

John Phinney · Post by **John Phinney** » 12 May 2013 4:18 pm

I have a NV400 in a head cab and a 1971 Fender Super Six (also in a head cab) that I run through a 1x15 open back cab with a Neo Black Widow in it.

After playing out for 4 years with the NV400, the Fender (a recent acquisition) is now my main gigging amp. The biggest reason is because I also play some combination of guitar, banjo and/or uke during gigs and got tired of carrying an extra amp with me (Roland Cube 30x, great swiss army knife amp btw). With the weight of the Super Six its not really that great a trade in retrospect.

If I played only psg I would choose the NV400. It's louder, stays clean forever, and is lighter.

The Fender took some time to "burn in" after I replaced a bunch of components (electrolytic caps, some tone caps, and a number of resistors), had a couple mods done to it (bias, proper ground), and got new tubes. I was close to giving up on the amp, but then it began to sound the way I expected after @60 hours of playing time. It still isn't loud enough before it distorts. Some dirtyness and grit at the top of the volume pedal is okay, but if I'm playing an outdoor gig with nothing behind me it won't cut through even dimed. In a small closed room the amp set like that could probably render you sterile, but in some gig conditions it disappears. Maybe I need to switch to a closed back cab. There is something different about the sound of tubes. It can be magical. However, its most noticeable when I'm playing the 6 string. Just my experience so far.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 12 May 2013 6:00 pm

Hey John:

Basically we are on the same track. Buddy Emmons once commented as tone being 4 headed monster. The last sentance as I recall, he wishes he had an amp with the tone of a Fender but had the punch of a Peavey (paraphase here)

I think that pretty much sums it up

But we have Brad Sarno, John LeMay, Milkman amps and others that think forward and focus on what gear a steel guitar and the players like.

Time for some medication and dream about the elusive golden tone

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 12 May 2013 6:13 pm

Played a gig last night with my NV400 with the Fox mod, and later I upgraded the op amps. The sound man (one of the best I have ever worked with) and I were talking as we were tearing stuff down and said how much he liked the tone from my amp. I told him I bought it in 85 and had the mods done. He asked if I had any mods done to the tubes. I told him it's solid state and he was floored. Said the sound was getting sounded like a good tube amp to him.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 13 May 2013 5:46 am

Play the amp that sounds best to you. I picked up an all transistor Standel 2x12 on CL for $150 and now my all tube, point to point Twin Reverb is gathering dust.

Joe Gall · Post by **Joe Gall** » 13 May 2013 6:17 pm

I played my Peavey Falcon (strat copy) through this recently acquired Peavey Mace VT Series amp. With (6) 6L6 tubes, ouch, this amp screams like there is no tomorrow! I have never played through a Mace, but I do have a Deuce with Black Widows. This Mace is actually out of control! I have never heard ANY amp with so much power.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 May 2013 7:58 am

Leonard Imbery wrote:So what I'm getting here is that tubes have a sweeter sound as long as they're not overdriven but the transistor amps will blast it out there cleaner if one is in a high volume situation?

Not exactly. Tubes normally have an almost identical sound to a good solid state amp unless the volume goes up. At that point, tubes begin to have an advantage over older solid state designs. However, the newer solid state designs are superior to the older designs in this area, so a modern solid state "modeling" amp is almost indistinguishable from a tube amp. The technology has come a long way in the past 10 years, and the newest solid atate designs are nothing like those produced from the '70s thru the '90s.

But personally, I still don't prefer the modeling amps because of their "preset oriented" controls.

Leonard Imbery · Post by **Leonard Imbery** » 14 May 2013 8:01 am

Interesting Donny.... And you know that the modelling in these new SS amps will have models of all the classic old tube amps in them....

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 May 2013 3:28 pm

Eventually, the modeling designs will surpass even the best tube amps. It's only a matter of time. When you look at how far reverb and echo came once the technology was up to speed, it's easy to see this new wave coming.

All that said, I'm still avoiding digital amp technology.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 14 May 2013 3:42 pm

the nice thing about any tube amp is that you can get it fixed by just about any tech in a music store just about anywhere you are

the solid state and digital modeling amps made these days are considered disposable

sure, they might be cheaper in the short term, but a good tube amp will be your one and only amp for a lifetime and you don't have to feel bad about contributing to the terrible electronics "recycling" racket overseas and to the landfill and groundwater problem here in the states.

Bill L. Wilson · Post by **Bill L. Wilson** » 14 May 2013 9:53 pm

Tim, the old boy that works on my tube amps, will not touch a SS amp for any reason. Fortunately my old Session just keeps on tickin', when I need that extra volume, and for a 200dollar rig, I won't complain if it ever dies.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 15 May 2013 6:40 am

The key word there is "old"

I'm talking about the new stuff - old SS amps were built like tube amps

The Steel Guitar Forum

tubes vs. solid state

tubes vs. solid state

Tubes and Solid State.

Fixin' those amps.