The New MSA - An UNBIASED opinion

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 21 Mar 2003 8:01 pm

David has a measure of truth in his post. When I close my eyes while Tommy is playing there is no way I could tell the difference in what brand he was playing. It all still sounds like Tommy and he is the most visible player that is known for playing a different brand from one week to another. I've always said that any guitar can be made to sound like any other by EQ. It's just they have their own built in tone which can be tweaked to the level of another brand by boosting or cutting certain octave bands.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 21 Mar 2003 8:10 pm

Gary, you've always said that? Why have you always said that? An EQ is all you need? Have you found one that adds secondary loops and lodes to a string vibration? One that changes the color of the note? It must cost a million dollars! I think it would still be cheaper to get a good sounding guitar,huh? An EQ that changes the color of a note? Just think, Porter Waggoner could sound just like Perry Como. All he'd need is a EQ! I could sound just like Barbra Strisand! Just this magic EQ is all I need! Boy, I wonder why no one has ever done this ? With this , a Blah, Blah, Blah, guitar can sound just like a P-P Emmons! Where can I get one?[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 21 March 2003 at 08:12 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 21 March 2003 at 08:48 PM.]

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 21 Mar 2003 9:17 pm

Hey there Bobbe, just to clarify where I was coming from, I have in my rack a 31 band Equilizer that can boost or cut any octave range that the steel can be found. As we know, a note is series of tones, overtones that can be changed by enhancing certain ranges. On a Hammond organ that have sliders, the tone can change by boosting or cutting the overtones. When in past recordings, I've made my Mullen sound like a mid 60s P/P or even an old Fender 1000 or the biggest steel in the world. I have Tommy's video P/P in my setup and the Mullen can get the same killer sound with a few adjustments. The greatest singer alive today can be made to sound like they're singing through an old megaphone through EQ. I'm not trying to be a smart alec but with enough EQ ability a guitar can be made to sound like a hundred different brands. Try it some time. I even have a Boss GE7 foot stomper EQ with 7 octaves and that can change the sound quite a bit.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 21 Mar 2003 9:28 pm

Are you saying that with enough EQ, Porter Waggoner could erase his accent? Change it to a L.A. accent and sing pop music? Could Porter sound like a P-P? You say your EQ can make a Mullen sound like a P-P to you? How about to me? Will the EQ help the Mullen service?
Gary, forgive me, I'm just a pickin' on you in fun. You are a good guy and I always enjoy your posts. I even agree with you once in a while!
I won't think you are a smart alec you you won't think I am!
Your friend,
Bobbe

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Mar 2003 10:25 pm

Damn, Seymour, I hate it when you're right.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Mar 2003 1:52 am

If the guitar doesn't have a particular set of resonances and overtones, a 1/6 octave eq won't bring them out. Yes you can modify the overall tonal balance with eq, but if it ain't in there to begin with, it just ain't there.

I am itching to hear an MSA in the right hands. Wish I could get the GOO over here.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 March 2003 at 01:52 AM.]

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 22 Mar 2003 4:18 am

About that EQ issue I would tend to agree, IF we could EQ every string independently because if you EQ a particular string, that note's color and need for EQ will be quite different on an other string and fret. And THERE is where I see most difference between one guitar and an other.

... J-D.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 22 Mar 2003 6:00 am

David W....I want you and everyone to know how much I appreciate your coming by our room and playing an MSA. Yes.... you sounded just like David Wright.

I then went over to your room, played the Sierra for a good while, and immediately had a sound which allowed me to be myself musically.

I commend and appreciate Tony and yourself for continuing the great tradition your father started many years ago. More importantly, I admire the "friendly competitor" attitude as well as the positive and friendly attitude that has always been displayed by everyone associated with Sierra guitars.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 22 Mar 2003 6:25 am

I used to listen to Tommy White on his T.V. show every nite and I could usually tell if not which guitar he was playing at least that he was playing a different guitar from nite to nite. Always preferred when he played the P/P, but that's just my preference.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Mar 2003 7:11 am

If Buddy Emmons were to play a guitar made out of a pine 2 X 4; with some strings attached across it using a cheap PU; and a coat hanger (emulating Bud Isaacs lone pedal), and using an EQ adjusted by you, could you make him sound identical to the sound he got on his black album?

carl

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 22 Mar 2003 7:39 am

I belive that getting a 'good tone' IS in the hands, however, nobody's hands, or every eq in the world will not make a ShoBud sound like an Emmons, or an Emmons like a ShoBud, or an MSA classic sound line a millennium or vice versa, and so the list goes on. Plain and simple, certain types/amouns of woods, changer designs, and other 'goodies' give each guitar it's unique tone.

Put it in 6 string terms, put a les paul pickup in a strat, it sounds like a strat with a humbucker, put a strat pickup in a tele, and it sounds like a tele, put a tele pickup in a strat, it still sounds like a strat. The biggest difference between why a strat sounds like a strat and a tele like a tele is in the BRIDGE design. The tele has the strings anchored in WOOD, and the pickup mounted to the bridge,, while a strat has the strings anchored to a steel block that is basically floating in midair. YOu just get certain resonances and a liveliness out of a tele you can't get out of a strat. And those are usign the same woods! take a LesPaul or a Gretch etc, they all have their own voicing. Now take a good player. The player will still sound like himself. An example, I've heard Dickie Betts from the allmans play Les Pauls, ES335s' and Strats. Yes, he still sounded like himself, however, he sounded like 'Betts playing a strat, les paul or 335 etc)...

In other words, I'm not sayign one guitar sounds 'better' than another, but I find it hard to believe that the new MSA Millennium will sound like anything OTHER than a Millennium, regardless of pickup installed, it will either be a 'brighter sounding millennium' or a 'deeper soundgn millennium' etc. Johnny Cox and Tommy White, I've heard some great tone on the Opry, but the fact of the matter is, Tommys tone is different when he playes the Millennium, than when he played a Carter. Tommy and Johhny had the same basic tone, however, their own styles did show themselves (and both put my feeble attempts at playing to shame!!).

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 22 Mar 2003 7:52 am

Gino, exactly! This is what I've been saying for seven years on this forum. You nailed it.

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 22 Mar 2003 8:07 am

Well guys, I just gotta add my 1 cent worth.
I have a Mullen and a GFI. These two guitars don't sound anything a like and no amount of EQ will ever make them sound the same. Both have great tone but they are as different as day and night.

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Playing PSG keeps you on your toes.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 22 Mar 2003 8:07 am

Thanks Abraham for a thorough evaluation of the MSA from your point of view. I have had disagreements with MSA in the past but I looked at the guitars at the Texas show and the appearance is very nice. They have come up with some good ideas and the material is lightweight. One leg weighed less than my bar does. I did like the idea of the pickup sliding out the door. However, How many pros are playing the new MSA? Maybe they have not been on the market long enough to find out but time will tell. The guitars are rather expensive but that may be due to setup costs or the cost of the materials they are using. I have only heard Tommy and Johnny on the Opry playing the MSA through the internet so I have not heard one in person. I am impressed by the appearance plus some of the features they have on the guitars. The new MSA may be the guitar of the future, only time will tell...Paul

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Mar 2003 8:30 am

Mr. B.S.

wrote:

An EQ is all you need? Have you found one that adds secondary loops and lodes to a string vibration? One that changes the color of the note? It must cost a million dollars!

Actually, my Variax does just that, right in the guitar. What can be done with electronics today, at reasonable prices, is absolutely amazing.

And Bobbe, you have a lap steel that sounds just like an orchestral string section. You're well aware of the power of electronics in music, so lighten up a bit, okay?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 22 Mar 2003 8:54 am

Lighten up? If I ever lightened up, you'd think I was mad at you. You know you love me just the way I am. I'm not exactly like anyone else, I'm more opinionated, a little more brave in posting my opinions, have a lot of years experience, a rotten speller and a guys that would do about anything for anyone. And you love me!
Now, we all know an EQ won't make Porter sound like Dolly. I don't care if it has 500 bands of EQ and costs two million bucks.
OK, I'll lighten up, would the Atkins diet be OK with you?
Your buddy,
"The Lighter" Mr. bObbe.

P.S., Come over to my forum, you can cuss me over there!

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 22 Mar 2003 9:00 am

Could you tell me;__is Jerry Byrd playing an MSA Millennium with a 22 & 1/2" scale yet?

I would bet money he could make it sound just like, Jerry Byrd.

Rick[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 22 March 2003 at 09:03 AM.]

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 22 Mar 2003 9:25 am

Put it in 6 string terms, put a les paul pickup in a strat, it sounds like a strat with a humbucker, put a strat pickup in a tele, and it sounds like a tele, put a tele pickup in a strat, it still sounds like a strat.

As a former 6-stringer of many years, I´m tempted to say, if you do those pickup changes, the aforementioned guitars are likely to lose part of their respective unique character. A Strat with a Les Paul pickup or a Tele with a Strat pickup etc. just sound not quite right IMO.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 22 Mar 2003 11:39 am

Well, it's like this folks. When Bobbe posts on this forum he doesn't sound anything like Bobbe that posts on the other forum. And when B0b posts on the other forum he sounds a little different over there. So, when you play different guitars that feel and sound a little different it influences the way you play!

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 22 Mar 2003 12:12 pm

Might as well get my 1-1/2 cents worth in here. I'll agree with "e.q. can make one brand sound like any other" to the degree that "like" be defined as "more like" and NOT "THE SAME AS", meaning some people will swear it's the same and some won't.

I think everyone hears tones slightly differently and I've never heard an Elvis or Hank Sr. or Steisand or whoever impersonator that really sounds exactly like the person they're imitating, although some others may swear they're "just like them".

Also, being a 6-string regular guitar player too for 37 years, I've never heard any two of the same brand and model that even sounded the same, let alone trying to make a Les Paul sound like a Strat. I've had many many of them, all makes and models and done a fair amount of experimentation, my dad and uncle were building guitars and winding their own pickups since the early '50's, just didn't have any commercial aspirations....and I also disagree that "The biggest difference between why a strat sounds like a strat and a tele like a tele is in the BRIDGE design." That is a big difference but stick a Strat bridge in a Les Paul and you still won't sound like a Strat. The fact the a Strat has a maple bolt-on neck and a Les Paul has a mahogany glued-in neck, the (U.S.) Strat has an alder body and the Les Paul has mahogany with maple top body, also has much to do with their difference in tone. There is nothing that's going to make one sound THE SAME AS the other, but yes, EQ can make one sound "more like" the other, to a certain degree and NOT EXACTLY.

Bottom line (in my humble opinion of course) is that every guitar, regular or steel, has its' own sound which is further enhanced (or ruined!) when filtered through the players hands and techiques both in playing and amp-setting. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 22 March 2003 at 12:18 PM.]

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 22 Mar 2003 12:49 pm

Joe,
You are correct. However, doesn't mean you'll get a BAD tone. I use strat pickups in the neck/middle of my tele, why? they have a bit more juice and match up with the bridge pickup the same. However, does it sound like a strat? You can get 'strat reminiscent tones', but the string through design/bridge design of the tele add too many overtones that still let it sing like a tele (imho, a tele is the best comparison to a push pull when doing the analogy

. -- in fact, throw a string bender on a tele, and you'll IMMEDIATELY hear the 'b' string doesnt have the same 'twang' that the others do, since it doesnt have the 'thru body' resonance...

and another note, a LOT of guys put humbuckers in strats-- look at the whole 'hotrod' guitar movement of the 70's and 80's, a LOT of good classic rock tunes were cut with this setup, still sounded like a strat, but with more meat.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Mar 2003 2:05 pm

The idea that you can make one guitar sound like another with EQ adjustments is laughable. Take a new MSA, a ZB, and a Fulawka, blind fold me, play it through the same amp and I'll tell you which is which. All great guitars. These three guitars have totally different tonal responses that are easily recognizable to anyone who has really listened to them with a good ear. Thats why I own three different steels, to get three sounds.
I once heard a guy in a steel store say that you couldn't really hear a quarter tone. I play fiddle and I bet him five dollars. I had the store owner hook up a tuner and play a steel sharp, flat and dead on. I walked out with the five bucks. People who can't hear the tonal differences in different steels just don't have a good ear.
[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 22 March 2003 at 02:06 PM.]

Abe Stoklasa · Post by **Abe Stoklasa** » 22 Mar 2003 7:43 pm

David Wright,

I agree with you. Tone comes from your hands. No doubt about it.

Johnny Cox, thank you for letting me try it out. It gave me many headaches trying to decide what choice to make. I appreciate all the help. There might have been other pick-ups that could have gotten that sound I was after. But, when I played through the various pick-ups into my amp, It sounded great, it just wasn't the sound I was looking for (Not that I didn't want to sound great, but A Porche runs great, but sometimes a Caravan's what you need). I hope I didn't say something wrong in my review. If I did, I apologize. Your Bud,
Abraham

"I believe that getting a 'good tone' IS in the hands, however, nobody's hands, or every eq in the world will not make a ShoBud sound like an Emmons, or an Emmons like a ShoBud, or an MSA classic sound line a millennium or vice versa, and so the list goes on. Plain and simple, certain types/amouns of woods, changer designs, and other 'goodies' give each guitar it's unique tone."

That's what I meant to say all along!! I just couldn't find those words. Thanks for posting. Words can be dangerous!

I felt I had to defend myself because I mentioned the sound was not, as heard by my ears, "woody." I never said it was a bad thing. I felt like everyone assumed it wasn't a good thing, so I started defending my post. To me, it was just different than the wood guitars I had tried. Of course, all steels sound different. That's why we have such a broad market.

It's true I had only tried the steel through my Evan's. It's also true that I only tried the George L's E-66 and TW's. But, I did this in every other guitar I played, so I felt safe to say that it had a sound of its own.

I was surprised this post grew so fast. Thanks for everyone that responded.

I guess all that we got out of this post is, if you want a new steel, try them all out yourself. hehe

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 22 Mar 2003 9:57 pm

Whats a big deal with MSA anyway?Some of us like it and some don`t.Like Johnny Cox said no company will ever make a guitar that everyone likes.

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 28 Mar 2003 9:32 am

Man,you guys gave me a headache trying to decifer all the comments,I'm just going out and buy me an OBOE,what are they made out of?

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona