E9th(B6th,Bb6th) E to F lever, a Keeper?

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 21 Mar 2003 1:29 pm

This lever had been a standard on the E9th for ever it seems like. I have noticed that some guys only raise the 8th string and not the 4th. Some guys don't use it at all,most Bb6th U12 pickers. Is this lever a must have for you, Or is it one you use but could live with out it.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 21 Mar 2003 1:54 pm

Couldn't live without it on my U-12 E9/B6. Besides all the regular E9 stuff,sometimes when I use the locking E-Eb lever,I can momentarily override it by hitting the E-F lever.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Mar 2003 5:03 pm

mega dittos Michael. Simply could not live with out it on my U-12.

carl

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Mar 2003 7:48 pm

If you play any traditional E9 stuff, I can't imagine not having an F lever.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Mar 2003 8:19 am

I think its a pretty redundant lever myself.
There are tons of threads with folks claiming it's never in tune... and several ideas of how to get it in tune, ie. use a wound 6th, use a compensator, try ET, JI, xyz tuning charts, ect...
I've found no loss of ways to replicate the chords and licks that the E>F raise lever is used for (hence it's redundancy).
FWIW, I also ditched the C pedal about 2-3 years ago for the same reasons.
I remember my first few weeks learning the pedals with a PSG and Winnies book, thinking... A pedal, BC pedals, uh... these are all the same chords!
This same exact lick can be played (without moving my foot) if I play it here, ect...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Mar 2003 8:56 am

Pete and I disagree on this one. To me, it's the most important lever on the guitar. One of the first things I learned was how to slide between the 3 inversions of a major chord: <pre>E ___3____6F____10_____15___
B ___3____6A____10A____15___
G# ___3____6_____10B____15___</pre>To me, this is one of the rudiments of the pedal steel. I wouldn't want to play E9th without an F lever. I'd lose too much music.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Mar 2003 9:15 am

First of all, Why would anyone want to play three notes at once?

Don't you know that's the fastest way to get told you're out of tune in a band situation!

Playing strings 3,4,5, on the 3rd fret is the same as 4,5,6, with A+F, on the 6th fret, is the same as... ect.

That tab you wrote is for the absolute day one beginner. There are tons of things to play without the A+F raise (the E>F raise being the part I find easily forgetable).

If I had to live with 1 lever, it would be E>Eb.

Terry Wendt · Post by **Terry Wendt** » 22 Mar 2003 10:54 am

I try to stay out of this stuff... but, I would not play pedal steel without this change, after 25 years and many, many changes, I agree with Bobby Lee as well. Rudimental change... and has nothing to do with playing three strings!

Terry Wendt

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Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Mar 2003 11:33 am

"...I would not play pedal steel without this change..."

Terry,
My guess is that you would be able to play just fine (and probably even better than ever!) without that lever.
Please take it off immediatly!

Pete B.

...and stop playing b0bs 3 note tab please.

David Reeves · Post by **David Reeves** » 22 Mar 2003 11:41 am

As a beginner I would like to say that I have that lever and still can not play.

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Stump Reeves

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 22 Mar 2003 11:56 am

Maybe these posts are all in jest, but Lloyd Green invented/discovered this change and added it to his guitar some 35 years ago or so as a change he thought was important. He has not added or modified any changes since. You can hear his story on the "Steel Summit with the Masters" video.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Mar 2003 12:43 pm

To expound on what b0b said.

I have always felt that the PSG should permit the player to get ANY inversion of a chord at ANY fret on the major picked strings.

Examples:

(strings 4, 5 and 6)

1. Major--1st, 2nd AND 3rd inversions (obviously not the same chord).

2. Minor--1st, 2nd AND 3rd inversions (see item 1.)

3. 7th--All versions.

4. Dim--all inversions.

5. Aug--all inversions.

Etc, etc, etc.

In other words, a piano player or regular guitar player has always had the luxury of getting any inversion of any chord they wanted simply by moving fingers. I liken this to being able to do the same thing at the same fret when playing a steel guitar.

In fact, this is the very core and foundation of what pedals and/or knee levers are for, IMO.

Sure a given chord CAN be found by moving to other frets and changing string grips, but IMO this defeats the concept of this thread.

The PF pedal AND knee lever prooves this to me beyond any shadow of a doubt. So does BE's lowering of the 6th string a whole tone. As does Ralph Mooney's pedal (engaged by the right foot) raising 4 a whole tone. And lastly but not least is LG's "F" lever.

It is not good enough (IMO) for me to have the ability to get any chord at a particular fret. Rather it is the ability to get all inversions of any chords at the SAME fret. This then allows the "phrasing" (resolve) of music which to me, is what music is all about. NOT just sounding particular notes.

ONLY one man on earth, is able to do this with non-pedals. Since he is not human

, the advent of pedals allows the rest of us to do it on a PSG. The F lever is as important as ANY pedal or knee lever ever; on the PSG IMO.

Praise God,

carl

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 23 Mar 2003 10:54 pm

Bob,

I agree with Bobby and Carl on this one. The E to F raise on strings 4, 8, and even 11 (optional) define the essence of pedal steel guitar playing. No other instrument allows you to sustain through all inversions of major and minor triads as you slide up or down the strings. With this change you have all the major triads on all the primary chord strings (3,4,5,6,8,and 10) on the E9th tuning.

The only other way you could get most of these changes would be to have the G# to F# lower on string 6. This leaves out string 3 however. Learn to play 2, 3, or even 4-note chords up and down the neck. Don't limit your options for creating music on the steel guitar. Practice a lot.

Dennis

John Knight · Post by **John Knight** » 24 Mar 2003 12:55 pm

It sounds to me all this bantering is over options. Without the change do you have options, absolutly, with the change you have more options. There are examples of players through out the 60's and 70's that are playing great pedal steel with and without this change. Please remember, for those who are new to the instrument, that great E9th pedal steel can be played with just 3 pedals and 1 knee lever.

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Mar 2003 1:08 pm

Yes, as long as that lever is the F lever!

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 24 Mar 2003 1:28 pm

I believe that you'll find that the BEST players -- including Buddy Emmons -- installed that change shortly after 'The Bridge Washed Out' was released. I believe that Pete B's position is in the vast minority among pedal steel players. Most competent E9 players WOULD PUT THE F LEVER IN THE TOP THREE LEVERS ON THE E9 NECK. Read the Winnie Winston / Jimmie Crawford book "A Manual of Style". Jimmie, John Hughey, Terry Bethel, and Weldon Myrick were asked if they had 1, 2, 3, (up to how ever many they use) levers, what they would use. ALL considered it a very high priority on E9. (I'm not looking at the book right now, but I'm pretty certain on this one)

Raising the tonic note in the NP position to give a 1#dim or augmenting the 5th in the A+B position is very powerful musical magic, in addition to bridging the gap between those two positions when combined with the A pedal. That equals INDISPENSIBLE to me. Just my opinion, but I think a lot of others share it.

It's no different on the universal, assuming you play some traditional country. I must admit it is one lever I rarely use in B6, but there's a B6 combination (P5+P6) that gives more or less the same result by lowering the F# to F.

------added later----------------
I just looked at the book
Terry Bethel: FIRST (if he only had one lever it would be the F lever)
Jimmie Crawford: 'toss up' between Eb and F as the most important
John Hughey: SECOND
Weldon Myrick: FIRST
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(even I was surprised)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 March 2003 at 02:38 PM.]

Rob Hamilton · Post by **Rob Hamilton** » 24 Mar 2003 3:38 pm

I'm in the process of adding this lever. (see http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/005426.html ). Not having ever used it, I haven't missed it (except for when I want to slide in or out of that diminished chord). It's all you guys saying how important it is that has motivated me to get the parts together and do it. I hope you're right!

--Rob

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Sho-Bud Pro-I, '62 Fender Vibrolux[This message was edited by Rob Hamilton on 24 March 2003 at 03:40 PM.][This message was edited by Rob Hamilton on 24 March 2003 at 03:44 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 24 Mar 2003 6:45 pm

There ya have it Bob D.
9 out of 10 steelers say it's a keeper!
Is it "a keeper?" for you?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Mar 2003 3:32 am

Without this lever some much smoothness and variation will be lost per the posts above. I can't imagine it.
Who says you must play all the notes available (in good tune or not)at the same time?

The fact that they are there to use as a line is immense, you can't duplicate this by jumping up the neck. Proper jazz would be impossible at any realistic speed.
I must heartily agree with Carl and b0b et al.